DM Discussion Results - Captured PCs

[GodBeastX]

Based on input in other thread we're going to be moving to a gameplay ruling as follows:

- Players may capture other players if the target is subdued, surrenders. If the players simply want to RP the capture themselves, for killing, interrogation, or robbing, they may do so without DM intervention. PCs cannot capture people for permanent executions or permanent jailing unless all parties consent to the outcome in this case. It'll be up to players involved but we encourage people to be realistic with these situations.

Some guidelines people should consider in their RP for captures:
* Use Rope vs. Escape Artist (Use Rope DC is increased by 5 if player was subdued or helpless). You cannot automatically tie people up and expect the rope to hold.
* Slight of Hand vs. Spot
* Bluff / Diplomacy vs. Sense Motive
* Intimidate vs. Character Level
* Also consider where you're dragging a person in from. Going miles to Sundren City jail or similar can have a great deal of reasons why you may not be able to take that person in.

We don't make an absolute ruling on skill rolls due to the nature of them and modifiers involved, but please respect skill points people have put into these skills when determining reaction.

- We will be working on more automated jailing systems so people aren't left to rot in prisons if they shouldn't be in long, but for now DMs will handle releases and bounties, etc.

- Capitol crimes and/or executions will proceed at DM discretion. Players will be able to use Signus items to have extraordinary luck in escapes or interventions against death. This may not be supernatural in origin, but something may happen to escape a dire situation.

- Permakilling will essentially vanish from the server. It will now be considered "Death without a viable corpse". In D&D it's near impossible to actually permakill someone and we want to represent this in game. Therefore we will be implementing a True Resurrection spell for level 9 clerics. Anyone dead in any form, plane, or reality can be brought back to life in the material world. This will have a LARGE cost associated with it (Yet to be fully determined) which may include experience, gold, or some resources, and it will definitely include a willing God to bring them back. The willing god is the most important part and up to DM discretion. Most people will be fine, but the idea is we don't want Torm worshipers raising Banites, or Banites raising Talosians, etc. Yes, even past permakilled people may be returned.

- Raise dead is being considered to having a permanent CON negative associated with it. Most people use resurrection anyway so it's not really an issue but we're considering this concept now.

- Every jailing may not lead to a trial depending on circumstances (As per Laws of Sundren) however, all evidences, witnesses, and information will be considered when distributing outcomes to captures. Just because you're brought in for murder doesn't mean you'll be believed to have murdered someone at the end of the day.

Out hopes are that this will remove the idea of ineptness in appearance that escapes and similar situations incur as well as lessen the fear of permakilling that everyone has on their shoulders. It may not be 100% ideal to every situation, but we feel this is the best course of action for today.


Note: Please don't discuss the other thread in this thread It was closed for a good reason.

[Phantom Lamb]

Also please note:

Players may always capture other players but turn them into authorities. At this point, it is no longer a PVP matter, but a DM event. There can be serious consequences to these types of captures. DMs will no longer make up ridiculous stories to spring people from jail. DMs will use judgement of the NPC there to decide if the captured PC should be let go, fined, beaten, or even hung.

True Rez and signuses can work in almost every case, with or without a body to rez. There will be a steep cost for True Rez. Signuses will remain rare -- they are more of a plot, divine intervention tool than a way to escape XP loss. Use them as you see fit.

DMs still reserve the right to rule that even True Rez will not work, but that will be very, very seldom. For example, Joe the Tormite wants to rez Jane the Banite. Torm will object and not allow the power to happen.

So, it's a new way to think for the server. Permadeath is really gone, but the handcuffs are also lifted from the DMs. Enjoy

[Peridan]

I'd just like to comment on how the communication between the DM staff and the players have improved tremendously over the last few months. I think it is a valuable source of progress that has lacked somewhat in the past, and that I truly appreciate the time and effort the DM's put into listening to public opinion on some major issues that have been around on the server.

Again, thank you all for your hard work and dedication. I am really excited to see how the server moves on from here.

[Silas North]

I hope this is more a 'rough draft' than concrete. The whole concept of treating death like a minor inconvience has always bothered me. And the idea of past perma'd people coming back almost seems to toss the past accomplishments in getting them taken down out the window. Things now seem to be 'whoever runs out of signuses first loses' kind of scenario.

"The noble hero gave his life in order to save the land from despair, forever shall we remember him for his grace wisdom and- *ping* oh wait, he's fine. Nevermind."

"After much war, chaos, and misery the foul black knight that tainted the land has finally been defeated. The land still festers from the wounds he brought, but in time we shall recover and regain the glory we once-*ping* DAMMIT! We gotta beat him AGAIN?!!!"

HOWEVER, I really like the idea of signuses being the cost for getting out of a bad situation, just not for already perma'd people and not in ways like this.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

I want to mirror the sentiments that Peridan just expressed. It's awesome to see a lot of true concern on part of some of the staff, working towards such genial communication between players and themselves. And then trying to come up with solutions not just for the players, but also to help with burdens upon the staff.

I'd like to just ask a question, for clarification in the things I've read. I couldn't quite understand the nature of the Signus in this new system. Can you use a Signus even if you've been 'permakilled' for the purposes of this new system? I know permakilling isn't possible, but I'm mostly speaking to the usual circumstances under which someone was 'permakilled.' Say, someone chops up another body, burns all the pieces, and then throws all the ashes to the four corners of the earth.

Is that person allowed to use their Signus to come back, or must they get a True Resurrection spell?

[gbbishop]

Permanent con penalty for raise dead makes the spell nearly unusable. Except in a situation where it is all you have and you need the dead chara to get out of your current predicament.

At any rate the permanent stat penalty seems really harsh especially when the alternative is to have a priest in a temple raise you lose a little xp and NOT you con.

Also they already come back at 1 hp... so it is impractical cast this in the heat of battle.

If there needs to be a "nerfing" to this spell perhaps a "raise sickness" temporary con penalty maybe con drops to 4 (not lower cuz then mages would die) making them very weak for a RL day or two. This penalty would not be remedied by restoration or the like.

This would reinforce the fact that THEY JUST DIED! They should not want to rush back out there.

Also the gods just granted them a get out of hell free pass, if I were a god I would let them recover with out a heal spell and let them think about what it was they did wrong.

Granted some players RP recovering from death quite well already and kudos to them for good rp.

thoughts?

[Urithrand]

That of course depends on the temple you go to. There's only one temple at this time which DOESN'T use raise dead.

[GodBeastX]

The CON loss is a P&P requirement. We've only considered it, but it's not really important to the nature of the idea and may never get implemented.

As for death being a minor inconvenience. What can I say? It actually is only a minor inconvenience if someone has the resources, but if I said "hey, if someone gets killed without their body and the caster bring them back for 50,000 coins, and the raised person loses a level" how much of a minor inconvenience is that? Most people hardly see that many coins at once and to have to do it more than once for the same person is a pain in the butt.

This is why in P&P people don't cast True Res left and right. 25,000 coins in P&P and level 9 clerics to be able to cast it is a rare phenomena. I've been on servers where resurrect itself is a viable restoration for dead people and it only happens once every two months just because the resources aren't readily available.

And considering the concept of "How hard it was the get the person" right now the situation is you can't get the person. This is a middle ground I think. You can get the person and it may or may not be temporary depending on if someone else wants to put the effort in to bring that person back into play. To me that adds to the idea of the impact a person has made giving them a viable means to survive the worst conditions. If you've companions interested in seeing you around they'll want to work to bring you back, and it will be work. It's not like the person has to come back just because people are working on it. Given the time frame, the player might have moved on to another character by then and not wanting to bother playing the old one.

So I guess to summarize I'm saying, just because it CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL happen.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

And concerning the Signus question?

[GodBeastX]

Is that person allowed to use their Signus to come back, or must they get a True Resurrection spell?

I think the idea of the signus in Sundren is to consider it a Green mushroom from mario. You get a 1UP with it. Considering their absolute rarity they're sort of a "I have this in my back pocket, and I think I want to use it to save my skin."

While we were using it to avoid perms, not sure about after it's happened already. I think we'll need to decide that.

Edit: I can say I personally wouldn't object to this but I can't speak on whether it's okay until DMs tell me they hate it or like it.

[gbbishop]

Also I think Silas is right but I think that there are two things that we are overlooking.

One: The soul needs to be WILLING. We don't know what is in the afterlife... so perhaps they content to stay dead, or maybe they find the after life more appealing.

Two: The god needs to be willing.

For True Resuection you have to have a willing god. Probably a damn good reason to boot. Bringing a being back to life is "breaking the rules" there are several gods who guard against unwarranted returns to life. Gods have their own political games to play and I can see many reasons why a god would not grant TrueRez.

As for the Signus... I like the "get out of jail free" bit. If you are a "permadead" character it should be your responsibility to devise your narrow escape not the DMs. You should have to submit this story to the DMs for approval as a safeguard against shenanigans and stupidity.

okay that is all I'm gonna say.. i think.....

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

Cool. While I recognize the ultimate decision lies upon the staff, I'd still like to say that we shouldn't allow it to be used after the fact. Reason why? Because then no one would really need to use one to get out of a poor situation, since they could just wait to see the outcome. If they escape without the Signus, they're fine. If they didn't escape, and died, they could just then use the Signus.

So, no one would use it for a Deus Ex Machina 'Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card,' but instead use it as a 'I'm alive again!' card.

On top of this, then everyone that's been perma'd in the past could just come back, and live again, as long as they had one jingling in their pocket along with their car keys.

I think it'd be peculiar for Baragorn to just suddenly come back after all this time, because he had an extra Signus in his inventory.

"Oh, where have I been? I was eating breakfast with Torm. A very, very, very large breakfast."

It's a little silly, in my opinion.

[GodBeastX]

Yeah, I can agree with that Paradox. It does seem odd in an after the fact mentality.

Edit: If I wasn't clear though, no True Resses will be cast on PC's without a DM overseeing it. Cuz like GB said, gods have personalities and they'll want damn good reasons. I imagine True Resses take a large portion of their power to cast and despite what people think, gods do have a finite amount of power.

[Phantom Lamb]

Yeah no doubt. Baragorn's situation is beyond signus raise level. However, it might not be beyond True Rez spell level -- but that's for the DMs that ran the event to determine

[gbbishop]

That of course depends on the temple you go to. There's only one temple at this time which DOESN'T use raise dead.

oh well... This is good to know. Though it all looks the same from the player perspective there is no "abbot is casting raisedead.... abbot casts raisedead"

I like the HIGH cost of Trueres GBX. it should be Damn hard to do. perhaps even requiring a quest to complete, a show of devotion or a sacrifice life for a life sort of thing... alas that puts the burden back on the DM but they already need to make the "god willingness" call so....

okay done rambling.