Craft/Profession/Knowledge skills: open to all base classes?

[Kaeldorn]

In response to a recent thread where availability of craft/profession skills was being discussed, I wanted to gather opinions on this question.

The original intent was to build up on the division of class skills made in the original NWN2 game, so that noone would easily get all the skills to become a completely self-reliant crafter. Though fatigue should already cover this issue for a large part.

When it's being considered anyway, I'll immediately throw in Knowledge skills. It would make sense if someone's personal background and interests would decide what fields they studied in. I could easily see a young rogue stealing books on the planes if he had some fascination with otherworldly phenomena and stories about demons and angels, for instance.

I want to keep the class skill division as it is on prestige classes as they are already more specialized and defined, which means they still have to spend double points to increase cross-class skills.

Thoughts?

[Silas North]

The crafting skills are a lot like the new and old skills in NWN 2, which is something not EVERYONE will be good at. It makes sense that only certain classes will be able to do certain kinds of crafting, much as it makes sense that only a rogue will be able to some rogue stuff. However, I do think it would be a good idea if every base class had access to SOME kind of crafting and/or profession.

Despite a few minor bugs and a few other nitpickings, I rather like the new crafting system as it is. I would like to see new recipes (such as on hit: dispel enchantments, scythe plans, and cooking recipes) and maybe a few more material 'veins' spread about. Other than that though, I tip my hat to the brains behind this excellent system.

[BedlamX]

Personally, I like the idea of opening up some of those skills to everyone. I think, as you mentioned, the fatigue points would keep some "uber crafters" from doing it all. But, even more so, the multitude of different knowledge/craft/profession skills would keep them down to those with super high intelligence or tons of skill points. Unless you just made the character to be a crafter and nothing else, niether of these is going to be able to afford to be master of all trades. A rogue without any roguish skills so he could be a crafter? A mage with no points in Concentration, Spellcraft, or Lore? A bard with no other skills than Perform and crafting? These would all be tough to play and almost impossible to RP correctly ( a rogue craftsman with none of the rogue skills would really not be a rogue...just another commoner ). You used to need Lore and Spellcraft to handle just about any questions. With the new Knowledge skills, you need both of those plus a few others to know what a mage normally would in the original game. If you open up more choices with no more skill points, people are still going to have to choose where to specialize. They might get a point or two in each, but to master all of these would be a daunting task.

I say let them be open to all. It should be incredibly apparent if someone is abusing the system and they can be dealt with if necessary.

[GodBeastX]

I say knowledge should be wide open since everybody can read a book.

I say professions that don't require some magic power should be wide open. Doesn't take a genius to cut wood, tan leather, hammer on a anvil, etc. Let everyone do it.

[RPMike17]

GBX speaks the words and I nod in agreement.

[BattlePixie]

you can also diversify (further) what stat each skill is based off so you don't have people who have high (Int/Wis) being good at everything. I know the systems incorporates this to a degree (and I do like the idea of fatigue blending different stats).

Because its reasonable that someone with a high str and con will be better at hammering out ore or blacksmithing, but someone with a high dex would be better at fine needle work.

[nox74]

I voted Open craft and profession skills to all base classes but not knowledge skills because I think that the latter should be INT/WIS related.

[ZubMessiah]

I say knowledge should be wide open since everybody can read a book.

Pure barbarians are illiterate unless they use skillpoints to learn to read! :V

[BattlePixie]

Pure barbarians are illiterate unless they use skillpoints to learn to read! :V

picture books with pop-ups? "Barney the Barbarian learns about majiks!"

But even barbarians have their skalds. Like books on tape, narrated by James Earl Jones

[gbbishop]

picture books with pop-ups? "Barney the Barbarian learns about majiks!"

But even barbarians have their skalds. Like books on tape, narrated by James Earl Jones

I want mine narrated by christopher walken. anyone see poker face as read by him? funniest thing I've seen in ages.

"I wanna hold 'im, like they do in texas.... Oh oH OOooh!"

[Silas North]

Anyone can study crafting. Anyone can also probably learn how to move silently, disarm traps, climb mountains, and appraise items effectively with enough time, study, and practice. One can always learn a skills via cross-class. We also have the ability to multiclass and use the Able Learner feat.

Spread them a little. I think that's a good idea, but I'm iffy about EVERYone being able to know EVERYthing. This is more in concern of the crafting and professions though. The Knowledge skills I still would not make available to EVERY base class personally, but can easily understand the validity of the argument for such.

[nezzerscape]

I would be in favor of NOT opening them all up. Perhaps just a few but that is it. That is why there are classes. Classes are used to categorize “types” of characters. Yes this is profiling but really if you do not classify characters and skills than anyone can be anything. If I was to pick a fighter/mage combination I would take a XP hit. How is that different from cross-class skills?

Anyone can do anything. But if you choose to focus on a class then associated skills would come easier. Instead of thinking you get dinged for cross class skills, think that all skills cost 2 point but you get 50% off for those that are associated to your class. Anyone can pound metal, but a fighter would be doing this in the field keeping his/her equipment up to par, therefore it would make sense if they choose to become a blacksmith it would be easier.

I do agree with BattlePixie that the skills (or their associated attributes) could be more divers. Needle work is a DEX skill not INT. Yes there is some INT involved but I do not care if you have a 30 INT “Johnny 10-thumbs” cannot sew!

[Qinniqtuq Aggaak]

I like the idea of opening some of them up. Primarily the unique Sundren ones such as knowledge and professions. That way if Bronk the fighter wants to have Knowledge/history, he won't have to spend his only two skil points on one rank.

Giving hide in shadows, move silent, etc, to any class is a little over the top. If a wizard really wanted to train himself in professional stealth, he/she'd take a level in Rogue to do so. It just makes more sense that way.

[nezzerscape]

I would agree with some of the knowledge/history ones though I would have to look over the list to say for sure which ones. One could go as far as to have certain back ground that gave bonuses to select skill (I know they already do), say a "local" that gets +2 skill point to "history of sundren" (or what ever it is called)

my point on classes being use as "types" of characters, what you posted Qinniqtuq Aggaak, leads me to thinking that it is the skills that make the class not the other way. You are called a Thief (old school) be cause you pick pockets! not the other way around.

[Qinniqtuq Aggaak]

my point on classes being use as "types" of characters, what you posted Qinniqtuq Aggaak, leads me to thinking that it is the skills that make the class not the other way. You are called a Thief (old school) be cause you pick pockets! not the other way around.

I did not mean to make it sound that way. The classes though reflect the characters life & training, and although you can take ranks in anything, cross class skills are there due the particular classes formality. Each class has areas of specialty in which they excel in, which is why Rogues are more predispositioned to be much better in stealth, opening locks, picking pockets, compared to a wizard who has studied the innermost workings of magic to understand spellcraft. They can both learn each others skills, but I find unless you have that 'special' training to what gives the other class an advantage with certain skills, you'd only be mediocre at learning a skill that is not part of your class unless you delve into the superior training that provides the other class with access to the skill you'd like to take.

What would make more sense... but is not done in NWN, is that when you take another class to get a better skill range, you have access to that range of skills with every character level after that.

With the current settings though, If my wiz were to take a level in rogue, I'd only get to pump points into rogue skills for that one level, and can never do that again unless I choose rogue again later for another one shot deal. It would make for far more interesting characters would you have it the other way around. You could then have a rogue spend time as an apprentice wizard (1 level only), but not be interested in advancing in magical power but have a thirst for knowledge and study his ass off learning tonnes of knowledgeable info for his later rogue levels should he wish.