Group / No Group

[Ithildur]

I think the best way to stop grinding for money is by not letting the shop npcs sell super super rare items that everyone just wants thier hands on. soon enough money becomes useless.

What shops sell super items??? +1 weapons are not super items...

*scratches head* Now I was one of the people who at different points kept suggesting way to cut down grinding and fast lvling (if you knew to what extent I pushed for this, some of you true PGers would probably hate me :P ), but from this thread seems a bit like it's going the other extreme, if people are accusing someone of grinding for running to the spot where their party is, or when someone has to ask if they're grinding for clearing the path en route to a RPed regular patrol/ritual once a day... I thought grinding is killing excessive amounts of monsters in choice area(s) over and over again without any RP sense to it purely for xp/loot, which does not sound like what they're doing.

I dunno, maybe it's because I'm not around Sharahan hills that much but I don't see people grinding very often in Viridale; people come and RP for long periods of time at the camp, a few of them go to the gnoll area for a little while, but they seem to come back in a reasonable amount of time; I haven't seen too many people just camp out and hit 3rd, 4th wave of spawns in an area anywhere in weeks... maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong areas.

[undeadsteak]

What shops sell super items??? +1 weapons are not super items...

*scratches head* Now I was one of the people who at different points kept suggesting way to cut down grinding and fast lvling (if you knew to what extent I pushed for this, some of you true PGers would probably hate me :P ), but from this thread seems a bit like it's going the other extreme, if people are accusing someone of grinding for running to the spot where their party is, or when someone has to ask if they're grinding for clearing the path en route to a RPed regular patrol/ritual once a day... I thought grinding is killing excessive amounts of monsters in choice area(s) over and over again without any RP sense to it purely for xp/loot, which does not sound like what they're doing.

I dunno, maybe it's because I'm not around Sharahan hills that much but I don't see people grinding very often in Viridale; people come and RP for long periods of time at the camp, a few of them go to the gnoll area for a little while, but they seem to come back in a reasonable amount of time; I haven't seen too many people just camp out and hit 3rd, 4th wave of spawns in an area anywhere in weeks... maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong areas.

Temple of Helm sells some stuff.

[Warden of Eternity]

There are a great deal of points here that I agree with (ideas especially... That vengeance script is awesome - as soon as I read it I was reminded of the countless hours I spent playing the Legend of Zelda just to kill the chickens :P) but I think the main problem lies within everyone here, not just the powergamers we all love to hate. There are a great deal of players here new to the roleplaying scene, now more than ever because Neverwinter Nights 2 and Sundren are so new. Echoing what Ryne said... The good roleplayers need to lead by example.

Now, I'm new here (I just signed up on the forums about an hour ago) but I can say with confidence (even without having ever even so much as looked at this server from an in-game perspective before) that many players look up to a select few as figures of authority, power and to do what is "right". It's the responsibility of these figureheads to guide the masses down the path that you guys want this server to be taken. If your a DM/Admin/Guild leader and you see some new player come up to you, saying,

"Hi sir, I'm Fredrick the Dragonslayer. Wanna kill goblins with me?"

Then you damn well better be the one to engage them in what real RP is. If they see something different, that is what they are going to expect to do.

p.s. Now I'm not saying you guys don't do this, because I've never actually met any of you before. But I find that leading by example does infinitely more to influence others than forum posts, that are nine times out of ten times are just skimmed over.

p.p.s. Like I said, I am new here and I didn't bother with an introduction post... I find them a waste of time. So, hello everyone

[Donegal]

[quote=Fizzer;12279]it seems by this thread any character who actually does kill enemies could become construed as a grinder...

quote]

I agree. There is definitely developing a very elitist attitude around here. If you don't want people to grind, there is a very simple solution. Have everyone be the same level, from character creation until the end of time. Have gold only be awarded for roleplay on DM quests. That is your answer.

If you give rewards for certain behavior (i.e. killing monsters gives XP and Gold and Items) how in the world do you ever expect people to stop doing it. Even good role-players want to raise their character's level, get rich and powerful, etc. In fact, who doesn't in the real world either. Become better at a sport or skill, make more money in your job, own an awesome gaming rig or home theater.

My point is there has to be a happy medium. Honestly, I don't see that much grinding. Ok, sometimes but it's not prohibitive to having fun. My main char is level 8. I don't feel like I'm a grinder. And the people on the server who con 'very difficult' to me, are all excelent roleplayers who have multiple story-lines (that I am aware of) revolving around their characters, so what's the problem?

In my opinion the only time grinding becomes an issue is when a player does it to get a character vastly superior to everyone else, and then uses that as an excuse to pk, grief or in other ways hinder the game experience of the other players. I haven't seen that on the server one time, not once. DM's excluded ( because you see or hear of everything, lol) how many others have seen that type of behavior?

[valenator]

if people are accusing someone of grinding for running to the spot where their party is, or when someone has to ask if they're grinding for clearing the path en route to a RPed regular patrol/ritual once a day... I thought grinding is killing excessive amounts of monsters in choice area(s) over and over again without any RP sense to it purely for xp/loot, which does not sound like what they're doing.

People got awfully defensive about some guy getting his feelings hurt for not getting a group invite. That is what this is, by the way. Person A called Person B a grinder because Person B wouldn't just let Person A tag along. There was nothing wrong with the roleplay. Someone just threw a little fit because he/she didn't get his/her way.

Back on the topic, which is Group/No Group, by the way, everyone that plays here should know and understand what is and isn't acceptable reasoning and roleplay for joining up with folks. I mean, I don't know what the explicit requirements for joining here are, but I'm hoping that the written app must at least demonstrate the person's ability to craft a consistent, believable background for a character, which would insinuate that the player in question would be able to craft a reasonable, believable justification for grouping with someone, else leaving him or her alone. If you're making people apply, then you must have a standard in place; these basic roleplay principles shouldn't have to be taught.

As for dealing with the grinding...

Grinding is an OOC activity (the repeated farming of monsters/chests/whatever for the express purpose of xp and loot, devoid of legitimate in character motivation). The XP curve lets you know when you're maybe pushing too hard, so when it starts dropping, ease up. On servers I've played, and when I DM'd, I dealt with OOC activity with IC or OOC means, depending on my mood. If someone's just running from zone to zone, throw down some caltrops in his or her path; they're nonlethal, and they send a clear message. If someone keeps farming whatever monster, send a group at that person with the capability of tearing that person a new one. Kill him or her if they're dumb enough to stand and fight, or if they run, pursue and try to kill him or her anyway; just be fair about it.

This server's in the Roleplay section, so the focus has to be on Roleplay. Combat is secondary, else this would be listed under Action. As players, the best we can do is to set good examples for other players to follow and to not be shy about offering POLITE tells to help people get the swing of things when they're acting OOC. The DM's can swing the nailbat of justice to correct the problem, and I'd back that 100%. Afterall, we all should know better.

[Sathayorn]

As for dealing with the grinding...

Grinding is an OOC activity (the repeated farming of monsters/chests/whatever for the express purpose of xp and loot, devoid of legitimate in character motivation). The XP curve lets you know when you're maybe pushing too hard, so when it starts dropping, ease up. On servers I've played, and when I DM'd, I dealt with OOC activity with IC or OOC means, depending on my mood. If someone's just running from zone to zone, throw down some caltrops in his or her path; they're nonlethal, and they send a clear message. If someone keeps farming whatever monster, send a group at that person with the capability of tearing that person a new one. Kill him or her if they're dumb enough to stand and fight, or if they run, pursue and try to kill him or her anyway; just be fair about it.

This server's in the Roleplay section, so the focus has to be on Roleplay. Combat is secondary, else this would be listed under Action. As players, the best we can do is to set good examples for other players to follow and to not be shy about offering POLITE tells to help people get the swing of things when they're acting OOC. The DM's can swing the nailbat of justice to correct the problem, and I'd back that 100%. Afterall, we all should know better.

The problem here is that you see it as an OOC action, it should be In Character, If you're playing a pacifist you better not be grinding! Breaking roleplay to kill because "It's OOC" is just as bad as breaking roleplay for any other reason, at any other place. I, myself, always have a reason to do what I do, say what I say. The more people call loot and killing OOC, the more people are going to be fine with grinding and powerlooting. I mean why not? "It's not in character!"

[valenator]

The problem here is that you see it as an OOC action, it should be In Character, If you're playing a pacifist you better not be grinding! Breaking roleplay to kill because "It's OOC" is just as bad as breaking roleplay for any other reason, at any other place. I, myself, always have a reason to do what I do, say what I say. The more people call loot and killing OOC, the more people are going to be fine with grinding and powerlooting. I mean why not? "It's not in character!"

Your response doesn't make any sense. Grinding is OOC, therefore an unacceptable activity in a roleplay-centric world. OOC is Out of Character, which is not In Character, which is what actions should be. Since Grinding is Out of Character, it is an activity that should not take place. The more people that recognize Grinding as Out of Character, the fewer people we will have blatantly Grinding.

Did you read my post? I detailed what I think of as grinding and OOC activities and even gave examples of effective ways to discipline those activities. How would thinking of Grinding as an IC activity, which you suggested:

The problem here is that you see it as an OOC action, it should be In Character

...remotely help the problem? Defining an activity as In Character classifies it as acceptable behavior, which is opposite the purpose, here.

[Gurkak]

Your response doesn't make any sense. Grinding is OOC, therefore an unacceptable activity in a roleplay-centric world. OOC is Out of Character, which is not In Character, which is what actions should be. Since Grinding is Out of Character, it is an activity that should not take place. The more people that recognize Grinding as Out of Character, the fewer people we will have blatantly Grinding.

Did you read my post? I detailed what I think of as grinding and OOC activities and even gave examples of effective ways to discipline those activities. How would thinking of Grinding as an IC activity, which you suggested:

...remotely help the problem? Defining an activity as In Character classifies it as acceptable behavior, which is opposite the purpose, here.

Some (alot) if you think about characters are combat oriented. If a character is centered around combat and self improvement in death-dealing it's hardly out of character to kill things.

Obviously 'grinding' as run from point A to B to C and repeat with no interaction or playing of the role..(flashy emotes of what they're doing even if alone help here) isn't roleplay but if they do emote or similar and it has real purpose, and will pause when encountering others... Well, that's roleplay. Believe that's what he meant..

[Cheatcake]

If you consider monsters wouldn't respawn every few minutes in confortable amounts for you to slaughter over and over, you will see how it is OOC, no matter how combat oriented you are Maybe "metagaming" fits better, since you're abusing part of the game engine to kill things over and over when in fact they wouldn't drip in small amounts at a time, but come all in a flood of death all over people who stayed in the place for too long

[Gurkak]

If you consider monsters wouldn't respawn every few minutes in confortable amounts for you to slaughter over and over, you will see how it is OOC, no matter how combat oriented you are Maybe "metagaming" fits better, since you're abusing part of the game engine to kill things over and over when in fact they wouldn't drip in small amounts at a time, but come all in a flood of death all over people who stayed in the place for too long

That's true and I was waiting for somone to point out that obvious.

Yet in the case of goblins, their breeding rate could allow for deeper hidden caverns full of reinforcements or the like.

Gnolls, Orcs, or humans?

eh.. not so much..

However, to put in a mechanic then say,"You can't use it."

Is a touch,.. meh

Policing in-game and staying in-character; what would a lawful good person do when they saw someone with such insatiable bloodlust? Just as an example.

Lots of the things like that. Instead of making a butt load of rules OOC help folks get back IC and deal with things IC.

Breeds fun, and is the name of the game here, no?

[Cheatcake]

I think all RP servers start with not so many rules and hopes to deal with things IC Unfortunatelly, I never saw a single one remain like that

About breeding, look up somewhere in the forums the population numbers. The Mossclaw Alliance outnumbers all the 'civilized races' by "a crapload-to-1"

[Sathayorn]

Some (alot) if you think about characters are combat oriented. If a character is centered around combat and self improvement in death-dealing it's hardly out of character to kill things.

Obviously 'grinding' as run from point A to B to C and repeat with no interaction or playing of the role..(flashy emotes of what they're doing even if alone help here) isn't roleplay but if they do emote or similar and it has real purpose, and will pause when encountering others... Well, that's roleplay. Believe that's what he meant..

Sort of what I meant, the issue is peeople are treating slaughterring monsters as though it is not as relevant ot the characters as it should be, they look at it as experience and loot rather than actions, which are killing and searching bodies, not picking up items from neatly tied lootbags. The more people say this is out of character, the less people will realize exactly what it is they are doing.

Killing monsters is very in character, as for the spawn points. Acting them out as spawn points is out of character, though a system causing random encounters in random areas would be better, it would also be a pain to script, and likely cause "spawns" in innapropriate places.

So again, what people need to do is think about their actions, realize these things dont appear out of mid air and such, remember that they are killing these goblins, not just acting with a sword for XP and gold. There is soo much you miss out on by simply saying "it's a spawn, killing it is out of character". Think about what you're typing, rememberring that when you enter the world, you too appear out of nowhere, expecially for characters "from sundren", What? is them being here out of character? We didn't see them before the character was created! That must mean their backround is a load of crap! Come on! Personally I think that the encounters, which you will undoubtedly call spawns, of course, as that is OBVIOUSLY how you see them, SHOULD be seen as a group of individuals, NOT a group of computer generated walking bags of XP and loot, that you encounter on the way, and are for good reason, hostile to the "civilized" races, which thanks to your "OOC slaughter" are probably a lot more violent than the "monsters" themselves.

Please, oh please think about who is the bad guy here. You all commit genocide, but its ok, they're not goblins, they're not gnolls, they're walking bags of XP and loot, spawned for our pleasure.

[GodBeastX]

This thread is getting annoying to my brain, so I'm going to summarize with these points and lock it.

1) Killing and gaining gold is fine.

Obviously people are doing it and still getting DM pats on the back. So stop taking extreme views simply because I say "I don't like when people join groups without effort".

We setup a limitting script/plugin that slows rate of people who do it too much. People who don't do it much get a bonus. We want people to reach level 20 in about 5 months. If you are trying harder than that, that is what we are trying to stop. We're not trying to stop progress, just the rate it happens.

2) Players have their own viewpoints.

Players aren't DM's. What players like, or say is okay, or say they don't like, has nothing to do with DM's unless we ask specifically how players feel about something.

3) GBX's Viewpoint (Me)

Sundren isn't setup for players to Level as fast as they want. Sundren isn't setup for players to gain gold as fast as they want. Many people are used to games where you hop in and just go go go go until you reach top level.

We're designing Sundren for progress through character and interaction with the world, not through experience points from killing all the mobs you can. People who spend more time trying to progress through killing creatures, creatures that would realistically wipe them out as soon as they came into their den, will be moderated automagically.

Nothing else to be said about it.

4) None of you...

None of you at all have any idea who on the server is a powerleveller. None of you except the one doing it. So, for the sake of mine and every else's sanity. If you think someone is guilty enough to warrant your upset, report to us, WE can check rates and math to see.

95% of time people are fine and they just had a day they felt like growing substantially. Nothing wrong with that. Also, saying things like "Every time I see that player they are here" is way off. Because most of you don't play 24/7 to see how people play at other times when you're not around. Maybe you only notice the character when they ARE at your levelling spot.

5) Everyone is welcome here

If you aren't banned, then we like you.

That sums it up.

Honestly, I quoted the "Three lines to a party" deal, and I can't remember a single person who did it. I don't monitor people's long lasting RP so I can flame them on the server, or even think in my head "God this person is a crappy RP'er" because I don't think that about specific people. I might not like how some situations are RP'd out, but who really likes how every single situation is RP'd out?

It's important to note that was MY personal viewpoint and opinion of what I think is poor. Maybe the whole server thinks it's fine. That's your choice. If you all noticed, though, I havn't banned anyone for doing it, so it must not bother me all that much. Sure I speak harshly of it, but it's mostly because I was upset about the previous posts involved that went "(( Have fun Grinder!" and that upset trickled in.

So, this thread is locked. Let's try to get away from these sort of threads, they're... for lack of a better word... annoying.