Crafting Discussion - What would you like to see?

[Akitsuki]

i would like to see an effective Alchemy system that would allow us to creat effective poisons, bombs, etc.

[Reisiger]

Can't say I've yet played on this server, but here's my point of view of this topic:

• Any XP penalty should be reserved for powerful items that otherwise would flood the market (like a raise dead spell costs a lot in material components in D&D).

• Using skills and feats to limit what can be done is by far better than a rinse-repeat approach like in WOW. Tho I know this would force crafters to either adventure or have a different source of XP (maybe through successfully crafting and balanced the same way the XP system works?).

• Breaking the crafting skills into sub-skills and adding new crafting feats might be an option - once/if haks are loaded prior to character creation.

• It should allow for cooperation. So if I need a number of components that have to be crafted, I should be able to get them from a PC crafter (i.e. I'd buy a master-work leather armour if I wanted to make an enchanted one).

[Euniana]

2) Is there any plan to make some items craft only, or will everything also be available from merchants? I was a little suprised to find adamantine full plate for sale in Sundren city - ok, it's expensive, but as this is an example of the kind of thing that is the apotheosis of the crafters art, it takes away a lot of the appeal of playing a character that can create such things if they can be picked up 'off the peg' anyway by any character that has sufficient cash. Why bother spending skill points and feats (skill focus) in crafting skills if you can get the same items quicker by taking toughness and combat feats and being better at killing things that drop loot? (ok, I know the answer to that - because you want to RP a crafter - but it's a genuine statement of how i felt when I saw the item was available, so thought I'd mention it here. It's nice to be able to make 'unique' things - and it allows a character to become a focal point.

I believe so. As for adamantine full plate, it has been removed (as soon as Godbeast applies the changes). All other adamantine items in Sundren City are one pop per reset.

[Cheatcake]

Please, NO CNR (Craptable Natural Resources) clone. We want to get rid of xp grinding in so many ways, do not instead replace it with crafting skills grinding. Look at any server that ever implemented it. The result is a large part of the playerbase staying all day long cutting wood, polishing gems, smelting metal and whatever other thing they do, and nothing else :/ Make the materials hard to come by, but the process of crafting as easy as on the OC, please

Also, I agree with the XP cost PnP-style when you craft anything magical. The gold cost should be removed since you're already supplying all the materials, but the XP cost is what will keep people from eventually walking around with five hundreds of the same magical item

[VanillaRose]

I would like the ability to create healing kits to be included (if it's not already; I've not played the OC.)

[Ula Fey]

Please, NO CNR (Craptable Natural Resources) clone. We want to get rid of xp grinding in so many ways, do not instead replace it with crafting skills grinding. Look at any server that ever implemented it. The result is a large part of the playerbase staying all day long cutting wood, polishing gems, smelting metal and whatever other thing they do, and nothing else :/ Make the materials hard to come by, but the process of crafting as easy as on the OC, please

Also, I agree with the XP cost PnP-style when you craft anything magical. The gold cost should be removed since you're already supplying all the materials, but the XP cost is what will keep people from eventually walking around with five hundreds of the same magical item

Please don't take this response the wrong way - it's not a flame or anything of the kind - but I disagree with you 100%

If the materials are hard to come by (i.e. because they're guarded by high level monsters) but the crafting of them is easy, then you won't have any crafters on the system at all. You'll just have one more thing for the fighters to do, on their way from the caves back to the inn.


And - I know PNP uses XP cost - but again, this then limits crafting as an option to those characters that also fight, and can get the XP back that way. It's also totally counter intuitive - repeatedly doing some thing (i.e. practicing it) actually makes me cumulatively worse at it?

BUT, I know, it's your opinion, and it's absolutley as valid as mine - and clearly based on problems you've seen emerge from such systems before - I just wanted to take my opportunity to disagree

<edited to add - if you want, I'll PM you the details of the other server I play on, where the crafting system doesn't cause an imbalance - granted it is very different to Sundren, but perhaps can show that carefully implemented crafting can add RP possibilities without unbalancing the gameworld. And given the job Godbeast and the rest have done on all the other systems, I'm sure they'll do just as well with this>

[Cheatcake]

If the materials are hard to come by (i.e. because they're guarded by high level monsters) but the crafting of them is easy, then you won't have any crafters on the system at all. You'll just have one more thing for the fighters to do, on their way from the caves back to the inn.

And - I know PNP uses XP cost - but again, this then limits crafting as an option to those characters that also fight, and can get the XP back that way. It's also totally counter intuitive - repeatedly doing some thing (i.e. practicing it) actually makes me cumulatively worse at it? And yes, you can argue that you get XP for RP and so get it back that way... have a look at Ichbin's comments about how his bard is progressing for a perspective on how well that works.

Materials harder to come by can mean a chance of 1 in 1000 for very rare items as drops or only getting them in DM-directed quests. Thing is, I completely and utterly loathe anything that will tell me I need to take acid and salt and fey pee and hippo dung to get a leather that I will then need body parts from something else to get shaped and then this and then that. If I wanted to do that, I'd do it in real life This is a game for fun and I guess people who have fun spending 24/7 clicking to get a hat made should head to something more to their tastes since for the average player that kind of griding is uberboredom. No offense

The XP cost is only for magical items. If you're a RP crafter you can go and make your plain leather, plain sword and plain shield. You do not start making enchanted items by sitting in town talking or staring at a forge for extremely long periods of time. It's another thing I loathe in CNR-like craps, a half-orc with Int 4 is able to make magical swords if he takes the time to grind enough Magical items are crafted by spellcasters and they infuse the items with part of their own essence, which is the XP cost. It makes sense and that's how it should be

PS: If this system in another server doesn't involves in anyway anything vaguely resembling CNR, has no griding, no "craptable skills", etc, sure send me a PM. Else, I'll lead a happier life not knowing about it ^^

[GodBeastX]

Generally the drop tables and buying tables go up to what we consider "+3". We were considering a +4 system where master crafters can build some items. +3 items are very rare, veeeery rare. So you can imagine how happy someone would be to get a +4 item from a master crafter.

Our item tables follow these lines:

White - Common - No Real +
Green - Uncommon - +1
Blue - Rare - +2
Red - Very Rare - +3
Yellow - Legendary - +4
Orange - Artifact (Single Instance) - +5

Orange won't be in game for so long you'll probably forget it's on the list

I'm reading all posts though, so keep them coming.

[Ula Fey]

Materials harder to come by can mean a chance of 1 in 1000 for very rare items as drops or only getting them in DM-directed quests. Thing is, I completely and utterly loathe anything that will tell me I need to take acid and salt and fey pee and hippo dung to get a leather that I will then need body parts from something else to get shaped and then this and then that. If I wanted to do that, I'd do it in real life This is a game for fun and I guess people who have fun spending 24/7 clicking to get a hat made should head to something more to their tastes since for the average player that kind of griding is uberboredom. No offense

The XP cost is only for magical items. If you're a RP crafter you can go and make your plain leather, plain sword and plain shield. You do not start making enchanted items by sitting in town talking or staring at a forge for extremely long periods of time. It's another thing I loathe in CNR-like craps, a half-orc with Int 4 is able to make magical swords if he takes the time to grind enough Magical items are crafted by spellcasters and they infuse the items with part of their own essence, which is the XP cost. It makes sense and that's how it should be

PS: If this system in another server doesn't involves in anyway anything vaguely resembling CNR, has no griding, no "craptable skills", etc, sure send me a PM. Else, I'll lead a happier life not knowing about it ^^

OK, non taken.

But, would it be fair to summarise your points as : I don't want a crafting system on Sundren? Hmm, in text that comes across as being snide, which isn't how it is intended.

I agree completely that only magical classes should be able to enchant items. If the XP cost only relates to enchanting...yeah, that works for me. I'd rather it required something like rare gems, perhaps only available from DM quests, or spawning rarely in some places. Simply because my experience is that crafters don't get...well, experience.

I think characters with high craft skills should be able to make slightly better mundane weapons. So, maybe a masterwork giving +1 to attack with no bonus to damage. And mundane crafters with sufficiently high skills should be able (eventually) to work cold iron, mithril, adamantine, and add silvering to weapons. A half orc with an intelligence of 4 should be just about able to hit it's own thumb with the hammer.

[/quote]This is a game for fun and I guess people who have fun spending 24/7 clicking to get a hat made should head to something more to their tastes since for the average player that kind of griding is uberboredom.[/quote]

Well, I guess I'm not an average player, because I thoroughly enjoy struggling to find out how to make new things, then spend ages actually RPing making them - yeah, a click on the workbench tells me whether I've succeeded or not, but there'll still be ten minutes of emotes typed out describing what I'm actually doing. Because we're all different players, and we all enjoy different aspects of the game - BUT this does re-inforce your point that crafting probably shouldn't be the only way to get items - and I'd agree with that, otherwise everyone has to craft, which is terminally boring for people who don't want to.

I suppose I'm hoping for a balance, where the crafting system is enjoyable for those who want to use it, without allowing overpowered items, and useful enough that it is a little more than an irrelevant sideline, but not a necessity for every character.

Oh, and forget the other PW....you'd hate it!

[Cheatcake]

But I do want a crafting system on Sundren! The breaking point is I want it fun and focused on adventuring and interaction between PCs and NPCs Is there adventuring when you travel somewhere, stay for hours getting some gems/salt/hides/whatever, then go to a crafting station of some kind and stay some hours more clicking ad nauseum to craft an item? Is there interaction beyond getting help to reach the griding point where you get components and selling items after the craft grinding? Like it was mentioned by someone else, it's a RP killer

Hunting material components, having to pay for imported rare items, bargaining with the coming Red Wizards for something, etc... that's what creates what I would find perfect. After all that, the boring part can be just a simple click here, click there, put items and it's over

Fight the grinding!

[Ithildur]

CNR type of crafting makes sense for a MMORPG type of server, where people log on and spend a LOT of time and energy doing menial things repeatedly like killing rats for 2 xp and collecting bottle caps to gain strength/power/wealth/magic items slowly more or less on their own. It goes hand in hand with systems that actually encourage farming for thousands of small xp spawn kills over and over again to advance in lvls.

Sundren is not intended to have that kind of a feel as I understand it. It's trying to go for a story/plot/RP driven feel where people can choose to spend time killing spawns from time to time to time but as more of a part of the bigger picture of RPing your PCs; it's not the focus- in fact it's obvious the effort has been to de emphasis this aspect of the game, so it makes little sense to set up a crafting version of grinding a thousand 2xp rats. IMO on Sundren such a system will be waste of time and a deterent to the flow of RPing your PC and being part of a story driven setting.

The ideal fit I think is in fact closer to PnP 3ed approach to crafting, modified for a persistent world where players can spend hours and hours logged on; i.e. i think the base crafting system of NWN is a good start as it is based on PnP rules - it just needs to be tweaked so that people who make crafter PCs can't log on for 24 hours straight and crank out 10 +4 longswords.

i.e. perhaps use a timer similar to the rest timer, and say you can only craft one magical item every hour, along with making the ingredients appropriately rare enough (i.e. you can't go to a shop and buy barrelfuls of rubies no matter how much gold you have - although the gold situation here so far is much better than the previous server I played on and I doubt people can afford lots of rubies)...

Subtracting xp from PCs i believe in pnp is supposed to reflect the extensive time spent making the item which could've been spent adventuring for more xp, isn't it? correct me if I'm wrong.

[Tassafina]

Well seams I am in the minority here..I actually liked the old LTS crafting system in NWN. Not really because of the grinding...its just that when you mastered a skill..you actually felt like a master. I dont see how anyone get that feeling by the current system. Now everyone can be a master..and never craft a single item. What sense of accomplishment can you get at being at master when you know that anyone that has an extra skill point at level can be just as good as you?

[undeadsteak]

Generally the drop tables and buying tables go up to what we consider "+3". We were considering a +4 system where master crafters can build some items. +3 items are very rare, veeeery rare. So you can imagine how happy someone would be to get a +4 item from a master crafter.

Our item tables follow these lines:

White - Common - No Real +
Green - Uncommon - +1
Blue - Rare - +2
Red - Very Rare - +3
Yellow - Legendary - +4
Orange - Artifact (Single Instance) - +5

Orange won't be in game for so long you'll probably forget it's on the list

I'm reading all posts though, so keep them coming.

so wait, are the dm given items that eunina gave, they were colored yellow, like Softeyes and Second Dawn of Lathander, legendary, or is it just to represent DM Given item?

[GodBeastX]

Yellow kind of is all of the types, but can go up to higher than +3.

[lord_kelthuzad]

What I would love to see is class dependent crafting recipes.
For example, special arrows that just the arcane archer could be able to create (provided he has the imbue arrow feat) or magical music instruments from bards, special daggers for assassins, ...