Crafting Discussion - What would you like to see?

[GodBeastX]

This is a discussion on crafting. What would you like to see? What didn't you like in OC? Etc etc. I will be working on crafting soon to get it setup and started, and am interested in player thoughts.

[Giant Moth]

I prefered the HCR variants that came out in NWN. The ones which carefully required pretty much every spacific material to craft armours. Bars, molds, patterns, down to the single leather strap. I think this is hard to create... but someone might -_-

[Kaybrie]

I thought the crafting system was great in the original campain, so long as gems like Kings Tears and what not are controlled... =/

Crafting in terms of weapons and armor was the way I'd wish it, same with alchemy, and I never tried trap making. If you want to get into enchanting as well (I guess it's a part of crafting) I'd just like to see things more expandable then the original campains was... The ability to craft your own wands to be imbued with any spell would be nice. . . Though I don't know if that's on topic. >.<;

[Ethereal Edge]

Crafting systems that require all materials, allow you to independently gain skills in creating certain items, etc. For example, a tanner might know how to make metal armor, but if he makes a mastercraft studded leather armor you can be sure it'll be better than his mastercraft full plate. Same applies to smithing weapons.

I hate the original crafting system, sorry.

[Multiplicity]

I actually enjoyed how the OC designed crafting such that it works like any other skill where it requires appropriate feats and skillsets to make various items. I also like how higher prized material was rare to find, but can potentially be used to make powerful equipment which prevents oversaturation of supply that helps keep those items in high demand with high value. Naturally, the the less powerful the items, the more abundant in supply they are.

As Ethereal suggests, it could be a good thing where the skills were not lumped up into larger, more general categories. More character skills could be created (I hope that is possible in NwN2 anyway). So instead of having a skill that lumps all armor crafting together, for example, you have a three. One for cloth based armor, one for leather based, and one for metal based. I don't know how balanced this would be for the game, due to limited number of skillpoints a lot of characters get, but it's one of many ideas that'll crop up, I'm sure.

With several crafting systems I experienced in the original Neverwinter Nights, players had to grab appropriate tools, mosy toward a spot where they acquire the resources. Then they lug all those raw resources back to some crafting place where they refine and use the refined good to create final products. These systems incorporated a process where you had to repeat this process for many hours until you became good enough to produce the best stuff in that skill category. Then it is off to do it again for another. In my opinion, these systems were utterly boring and a waste of time having to spend many hours just to train a skill. Not to mention it takes people -away- from roleplaying because they'd be more interested spending a lot of time training their characters. I much rather prefer a system where it didn't take players away as well as keep players from feeling like they're working a manufacturing plant doing the same thing for eight hours a day.

Ultimately, I think I'd be fine with any system so long as I don't have to spend eons laboring in front of a crafting bench. So if you don't agree with anything I said, just make crafting fun

[Keskul]

I liked the OC system a lot. All I really wish to suggest is POISONS!!!11 Please add them

[Ithildur]

The OC overall is a well made system and it's based specificly on 3.5 DnD rules; I'd like to see it implemented with some balancing, fixes, and perhaps expanding of options (more than 3 enchantments would be great, as well as things like only elves can make elven chain, dwarves can make adamantium armor without hefty penalties, etc). Maybe an extra step that requires a time constraint would add some flavor.

As long as ingredients and recipes aren't handed out left and right (or worse a few players end up getting loads of them while the others have nothing), the base system with tweaks is actually quite workable. The systems where you have to sit around for hours making a piece of wood into a piece of workable wood a hundred times before you can make a bow out of one, doesn't seem to make sense in a DnD context, even in a PW.

[psycho1976]

I haven't tried the HCR systems of NWN 1 much, but the little I did I found them to be too cumbersome. Working with it I felt as if I was in WOW or such, grinding away to get enough crafting experience so I could make me something worth while.

The crafting system in the OC is good enough, with a few alterations or limitations.

-The recipes and ingredients are tricky to balance. You make them easy to get (shops for instance), you might get an unbalanced economy.

-Letting the ingredients of higher/highest quality being in mineral deposits might be an idea. Behind the area of Mr. Big Bad and Ugly Having it in drops will lead to grinding and continual runs of areas to get that and that ingredient.

-Of course restricting what you can make so it doesn't unbalance the game

Looking forward to see what you guys will come up with.

[Anauroch]

As long as ingredients and recipes aren't handed out left and right (or worse a few players end up getting loads of them while the others have nothing), the base system with tweaks is actually quite workable. The systems where you have to sit around for hours making a piece of wood into a piece of workable wood a hundred times before you can make a bow out of one, doesn't seem to make sense in a DnD context, even in a PW.

Agree.

But on top of that I'd like to see the standard D&D costs implemented. 1/25 of the cost to create an item as cost in XP.

Furthermore, don't only limit what can be made by recipes or components, but put up a guideline what can be created 'just like that' and what should be checked with a DM shortly (I don't mean "wanna have dis or dat!!!" Get all components first, know what you want, then check).

[skyde]

I am pondering on making a dwarf who might be also a crafter. Do you intend to implement crafting using the skills characters have (ie. craft weapons etc.) or do you plan on making skills that are not naturally part of the character (ie. LTS system from old NWN1) or a system where there is no real skill but you just need the required ingredients?

This would naturally reflect on the character.. for instance if you choose some other system..there is no point in taking any points in crafting.

~s

[--chupacabra--]

Although I think crafting can be fun from an rp standpoint, I shudder to think of the potential imbalancing effects. I'm sure that balance has been the consideration resulting in the lack of crafting on most PW's so far, including Sundren, and so forgive me if I'm preaching to the converted.

With enchantments/craft wonderous item/craft magic arms and armor, one can fairly easilly create items which would sell for a fortune, not to mention completely mess up whatever CRs are in place for encounters on the server. In character vs. character situations, the availiability of enchanted items effects outcomes to a massive degree, as there is no longer an even playing field, at least bewtween the rich and the poor. Just a quick perusal of the recipies turns up a trove of immunity items (immunity to sneak/crit, anyone?), up to +8 to attribute items, up to +1d6 elemental or +2d6 vs. alignment items, et cetera.

Consider this: +2d6 damage is the same as 4 levels rogue/shadow thief/arcane trickster, 6 levels of warlock, 10 levels of duelist, and so forth.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with craft weapon/armor/trap/alchemy, as these skills only provide items that already exist. Mithral properties with armor proficiency is just something you have to live with, I guess. The only balancing there is how the economy copes with such crafters; will someone become Bill Gates overnight crafting a million suits of full-plate?

Would hate to be the one trying to decide what AB/AC/CR to give to a new creature for an encounter whilst trying to keep up with insane AB/AC/damage output of shiney new enchanted items on player characters.

I had a terrible experience on the first PW I played on in NWN2. An otherwise well-designed world with some good roleplayers was turned into an uberized 'action' world almost overnight with ONE good crafter character. Not joking; one day, everyone had max +1 weapons, the next, seemingly everyone had swords shooting lightning and multi-enchanted mithral full plate. Not fun.

Don't mean to be all doom and gloom, just suggesting to take your time and not jump into anything too quickly is all.

[Anauroch]

Don't mean to be all doom and gloom, just suggesting to take your time and not jump into anything too quickly is all.

I agree and I am happy that Sundren staff is taking it slowly and asking the community what the players would like to see.

This way your and other's doubts can be considered and evaluated. I'm sure they'll find a good system to include crafting in the mod.

[Ula Fey]

I'm currently playing a full on crafter in another NWN2 PW, and I'm seriously considering bringing that character here, but I've been waiting to see how the crafting system works out.

I'd like to chip in a few points though, in no particular order, but some are in response to points already made.

1) It was suggested that there should be an XP cost involved in crafting items - this would put me right off, period. I (my character) spends all her time buying materials off people, forging things and selling them to adventurers, experimenting to find new ways of using things.If someone comes in to buy a masterwork longsword, they'd better be prepared to wait 15 or so real life minutes for it, as I RP smelting the iron, forging the blade, hardening it, tempering it, sharpening, polishing, binding on the haft etc.

For this I get....0xp, except in some extremely rare occasions when a DM happens to be watching. (twice so far, for a total of 200xp.. I have very little IC reason to go kill things, other than to get materials, so, after 2 months play, my character is still level 4. If I lost XP every time I made something, I'd be about level -5 by now. I'm not complaining about this - I chose to RP a crafter because I love doing that, but it does cut you off from xp gain, and introducing an xp penalty to the process would make a 'pure' crafter impossible.

2) Is there any plan to make some items craft only, or will everything also be available from merchants? I was a little suprised to find adamantine full plate for sale in Sundren city - ok, it's expensive, but as this is an example of the kind of thing that is the apotheosis of the crafters art, it takes away a lot of the appeal of playing a character that can create such things if they can be picked up 'off the peg' anyway by any character that has sufficient cash. Why bother spending skill points and feats (skill focus) in crafting skills if you can get the same items quicker by taking toughness and combat feats and being better at killing things that drop loot? (ok, I know the answer to that - because you want to RP a crafter - but it's a genuine statement of how i felt when I saw the item was available, so thought I'd mention it here. It's nice to be able to make 'unique' things - and it allows a character to become a focal point.

3) please make the system difficult enough that it repays specialism. I like having a base skill point requirement to even attempt an item, plus a DC check to actually succeed on each occasion. If the high level items can be made by any character that happens to drop a couple of skill points in every other level, then it is a bit less appealing to produce a truly specialist character, with an appropriate backstory and IC behaviour, that is entirely based around crafting.

4) in terms of balance - so long as there is a cost associated with producing the items (gold not xp) and a chance of failure each time (which still takes the gold from the character) you can limit the impact on the server, as more powerful weapons can only appear slowly as characters have to 'save up' to attempt to make them.

5) having metals (iron as well as rarer things) appear in deposits which have to be mined seems to work well - it also puts another mechanism in to limit impact, as the respawn rate of the ore can be controlled, and mithril/adamantine can appear in the same caves as big green things with teeth.

Urghh.. I'd write a lot more but I'm stuck at work with a migraine coming on, and I can't see the keyboard properly.... I'll probably add some more once that's resolved itself.

Oh, and i know I've very little time in game here, so I don't expect my opinions to carry a lot of weight, but hopefully there are some points in there you might consider.

[Keskul]

I'm currently playing a full on crafter in another NWN2 PW..........

I agree 100% with your post. I think the best items in the game should be player crafted and have very basic gear at merchants. That way people will have to supply each other with good gear and player interaction is always good for some RP. This could even help the mercenary characters get some work by helping the crafters get to their precious ore/components. The only problem I see is that in order to be a GOOD crafter one has to gain levels. Crafters usually aren't adventures and leveling on Sundren takes a long, long time. Maybe some kind of crafting class can be added to Sundren. Would be interesting I think. That way they would HAVE to rely on others to get them materials. Anyways, I need to go to bed or I'll be asleep on my feet at work, which is bad. Bye bye now.

P.S. Ula, I wish you the best with your migraine, I get them like that as well about every few months and they just ruin me for 2 days. You should really go home and try and sleep through it. Thats what I do.

[Anauroch]

I agree 100% with your post. I think the best items in the game should be player crafted and have very basic gear at merchants. That way people will have to supply each other with good gear and player interaction is always good for some RP.

I agree... and disagree. Furthering interaction in any way makes sense - gets more people involved and all that.

Apart from this - what about the poor characters who don't have any crafter friends then? Compared to those who might have several? On an OOC level that can be quite frustrating, believe me.

There has to be a balance - good items should be available in shops, too. Just not any really customized ones. Other good items may be had via DM quests (at times). Then you have those made by crafters. As long as there are several options, I'm fine!