In the Wake of Fallout

[Usurper]

Really,there were many more options available than what many of you realize,including the ones that Uri mentioned above..

I will state that in the end, it seemed like a bandwagon approach for a means to an end of this plotline..What I mean by this,is everyone jumped on the bandwagon as the evil clerics were slain and proceeded to ride that wagon forward without really taking in the implications of what had transpired..

I am not going to mention all of the other "would haves & could haves,"either,but if you think about it and really evaluate the big picture,the end could have resulted in many other ways by player choice.Also at this point in time, none of that matters because the end of this story has already been finished or rather,has taken a new course.

I understand that some people are frustrated with the staff and possibly some of the staff frustrated with the players,but in the end only one character was perm'd(which I understand is something that the player of this character was planning anyways.)So the staff took complaints and such into account and allowed certain doomed characters to live on to fight another day..

All in all,I believe this whole ordeal should be a learning experience for all involved.So let us learn from whatever mistakes were made and move forward with that knowledge and wisdom.

[Phantom Lamb]

Let me respond piece-by-piece. I want to do my best to listen and respond--not refute. But, there are some problems with the accounts listed in this thread. There are facts that are not known, and statements that are inaccurate. To move forward, we need to clarify some of these things.

• There is a new development item that has been a Sundren project for many months that hinges on the result of the event.
• A character request was made with regards to trying alternative solutions. However, the response made no promises about the outcome. PCs are encouraged to try creative solutions, but they won't always work. That's what makes it a risk.
• There was an opening to flee in the final battle.
• There are some parts to the Sundren environment that are set.
  We try to be responsive to the community where and when we can. However, when Saulus bought this server and assembled a team to build Sundren, there were certain things he wanted it to have. When we join the team or play here, we have to understand these "tenets" are part of the intended design for Sundren and not up for debate. Let me list a few examples:
  • Permadeath is part of Sundren, when applicable
  • DMs work with DEVs to support the release of new material
  • DMs tell all kinds of stories: plot heavy narratives, where NPCs play primary roles in the story; character development; ambience; etc.
  • DMs serve many functions: story-teller, police, facilitator, character-developer, etc.
  • Sundren has consequences as well as rewards for players. The greater the risk, the greater possible rewards and consequences.
  • Not everything that happens to a PC must be approved by its player.
• As a result of the event, only one character was permakilled.
• I have received no requests or reports of "DM abuse." If someone feels they were mistreated, please report it and we'll look at the chat logs.

Now, I know when our emotions get high (me included!), we tend to make grand statements. "Things will always be ___," or "You never ___!," for example. I do want to build a responsive community, and I'll get to the root of your questions and concerns. But please help me build this by re-reading your posts before clicking Submit. The less lecture / rant included, the more responsive we'll tend to be.

• Permadeath--
  The permadeath result is separate from the idea of "railroading" in the event. In fact, permadeath wouldn't have been on the table if the event had been railroaded.
  Taking out any other OOC concerns and only looking at the result of the decision made and its outcome, permadeath was a viable option. Major plot event, major NPC villain, high risk was conveyed to the players, failure of the battle, explosion, building collapse, etc. Bodies would have been unrecoverable for ressurrection.
  We're not monsters and we of course consider OOC concerns. We didn't want to kill nine characters. We also recognize that things are as chaotic for you as a player as they are for we as DMs in large events. A very reasonable compromise was worked out.
  One final thing on this: a DM is here to support ability to make decisions and actions--not to save you from them. We will allow you to freely make decisions and take risks, but do not make the mistake of believing that every action you take must have a positive outcome possible. If you make a poor choice, it is yours to make. But we won't whip up something out of the blue to save you from it. We believe in risk, reward, and consequence.

• Choices--
  In this particular event, there was likely a high degree of NPC-driven direction. Not all events are like this, but we had a particular reason why this event was crafted this way.
  As stated above, there was a major development release pending. We decided to craft a cool plot line to go along with this release. At its resolution, the world you know of would have changed slightly. For those that remember, think of when the lizards took over Sestra. The town changed drastically. That's the sort of thing that is pending.
  Now, think of this event like driving directions from Detroit to Toledo. There are a couple routes you can take to get there, but you're always going to arrive in Toledo. We have to arrive in Toledo because of the development item that's pending. As you get closer and closer to Toledo, there are fewer options you can take on your route because the destination is pre-determined. Keep in mind, not all events are like this, but this plot line had to arrive in Toledo due to a development item.
  I'm sorry if that contributed to the sense of railroading, but we wanted to keep the development item a surprise. Without going into details and spoiling it further, I think you'll be pleased.
  There could have been more support for choices in this event, and there could have been more willingness to accept the results of these choices. To me, it looks like there is takeaway for both DMs and players on this.

• The Role of a DM--
  The DM has many roles, but I think if we remove the "absolutes" from the responses we've received, we can summarize thusly: you feel a DM's primary role should be to facilitate fun and development for the PCs.
  I'm in agreement with you on this, and I think our whole staff is. However, consider that not all events are ideal for this role. Knowing that this particular plot line was designed specifically to deliver new content to the server, do you still feel the same way? This was a narrative-heavy event, but purposely so.
  We'll take this feedback into consideration heavily for the future as we do new events. Our next plot is very character-centric.

• Players are Leaving--
  I'm always concerned about this, but things happen. I would not want to keep anyone here to doesn't want to stay here. Sometimes, you look at the way a server is run and decide you don't mesh with it. See the facts listed above. If you really are worried about permadeath, Sundren may not be right for you (although I can't remember any other permadeath given out in over a year).
  No one is banned as a result of complaints or concerns. So long as bridges aren't burned, people will be welcome back if they change their minds. And I hope you do.

• Going Against the Grain in an Event--
  You're welcome to do so! Please, by all means, throw us curve balls. Understand that these can't always lead to good outcomes, but they are your decisions to make. We can't tell you OOCly what will happen as a result of actions you take--they could be good or bad.
  Remember, our function is not to save you from your decisions, just support your ability to make them.

From an outside perspective (I didn't help with this event at all!), it looks like the players expected a different flavor of event. We did our best to hide the new development item from you. Had this been made known, perhaps the way this plot line "felt" to you would be entirely different. We wanted to make it a surprise. A series of events that lead up to a new development item will likely have a "railroad" feel. Please consider that there was reason for it and that not all events have this flavor.


Please let me know if there are other points I missed that you'd like me to address. If you're uncomfortable posting publicly, send me a PM. Thanks--

[Usurper]

Vey well put PL...

[EndsBeginning]

I was in the event and several of the things PCs did was crazy. I didn't see the forum post but from what I saw from the event there was hardly any "looking for another way" during the event or alluding to doing it previously. It was mostly the majority of the good side telling Bal that he shouldn't do this and constantly pestering him even as we were climbing floors. I didn't see any searching the dead clerics bodies to find out exactly how what they were trying to do was supposed to work. What they did was turn on the evil members who had a guaranteed way to beat the litch just before the final battle. They apparently needed a LOT of preparation to be able to do what they were supposed to (which is why we couldn't just have any priest...or mage come and cast a spell and we're good). It was turning on the evil at the 11th hour and trusting to goodness.

With that said yea, I don't believe in railroads, but waiting till the 11th hour to throw away a plan that apparently WILL work, and not having a backup plan is stupid and foolish. So yes, it felt like a railroad, but did any one search the bodies of the dead priests and do a spell craft roll on whatever wards or scrolls they might have had for this to figure out what they were trying to do? Did anyone really pull out something that might have helped IC?

As for the perma-death, I'm in two minds for. On one side yes perma death sucks for characters that were all 17+ with all the time and effort you put in. On the other It does actually make room for upward mobility in the server. We sort of have a "old guard" mentality where characters get established and are there forever unless the player retires the character. Kings (even gods actually) can die just the same as commoners, it just takes more. I think this qualified as more. Adventuring is a dangerous business (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060909.html), nuff said.

[Phantom Lamb]

Thanks for the input

Just to clarify--only Baragorn has suffered permadeath. The other characters were rescued and ressurrected.

I'll shut up now

[Intrepid42]

In response:

At no time did I expect we as players to prevail by opposing Balthasar. I went in expecting a probable failure. Also, given what I now know about the back-story, there was no way our actions were going to lead to victory. I should have stated that clearly from the first.

I haven't commented on the other issues raised as I don't know much about what transpired.

From the staff response, I accept that I was wrong about staff not expecting us to oppose Balthasar. I misunderstood the partial OOC information I saw in-game.

To Uri in particular:

Thank you for the time spend crafting this event. I really enjoyed it, especially the feeling of a desperate high-stakes battle. Our failure merely makes it more memorable. I apologise for any ill-feeling I may have created.

[thaelis]

From people's description of the events I can't see anything wrong with what happened (other than the supposed way he was talked to by DM). If a DM decides something is not possible, and communicates such to the players (I'm assuming IC they consulted a sage or NPC from whats been said) then the player can't expect to win simply because "the DM won't let me die"

If the case was that all Good aligned, in character roleplayers were predetermined to die with no recourse well then theres obviously something wrong, but thats something for the DMs to discuss amongst themselves and perhaps improve on.

Also, I'd be hesitant about complaining about someone that does something for you for free on a daily basis. Rather than complain, apply for a DM position..

[gbbishop]

Bottom line: Nobody likes to be called names or shouted at. So don't do it! Even if actions seem deserving at the time.

the rest of my post is being submitted via PM.

[cmosier]

It's just a game. Have a good time. Shit happens, take a break....

It's just a game.

[Ceyrus Hawke]

I've read both sides of the argument, and I have to say that I side with the DMs in their decision. I wasn't at the event, though I probably would have done the same as the other PCs did, right down to getting crushed like a fat kid asking a cheerleader on a date.

People do need to appreciate that this is a fantasy setting, and as such, other than a short period of feeling bad, there is no real harm in having a character permanently dead. Then again, my character should have died like 20 times over for some boolsheet he got himself into, I certainly wouldn't get bothered by it if he did though, as I have a few other characters I need to play badly.

Also, props to Uri for saying what needed to be said, but everyone else danced around it.

bee in their bonnet

You sir, are a wordsmith and are indeed a master of your craft. We need to bring back old adages such as this.

[Phantom Lamb]

He's British--they always say funny things in funny ways.

[JuneyGnomey]

Watch it! I wil defend British players of Gnomes to the bitter end. x

[Phantom Lamb]

I thought British players were gnomes?

[JuneyGnomey]

I'm in no position to dispute that.

[Urithrand]

'Tis not I who speaketh in the most unseemly manner, for it is thou who speaketh with thine unusual cant!

And incidentally, I'm 6'2" so that's more like 2 gnomes