Meta-gaming ! Not a nice thing to see

[TheBlankStare]

This is a warning. The following post will likely make many people angry because it points out some flaws. I am posting this at great risk and considerable danger to myself so that anyone who agrees with me but is afraid to say anything can feel secure that someone is bringing this up. Fear not for my personal well being. I am resilient and I can take the arrows and things that will inevitably be shot at me. I do not know if this will lead to being banned but this is the risk I take for all of you.

I should point out to the writers of the rules that I am not lobbying for change. That type of unruly behavior goes in the suggestion forum and is beyond the scope of this thread. This thread is about why you shouldn't metagame.

Now that I've attempted to rerail the thread back to it's orignial topic (and hopefully gained the respect and admiration of everyone who is reading this) I will go back to the topic of stealth and derail the thread once more.

There are firm rules on the use of HiPS, if people are not following these rules then they should be pointed in the right direction.

Actually the rules suggest running away from someone who has HiPS and there are no rules that govern it in a PVP situation other than to "discourage" archers with it from shooting arrows into their foes.

I've looked on the compass and discovered the right direction as well: http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...=Rules#Stealth

HIPS (PVP combat): There are no HiPS restrictions for PVP. Players have the option to run away; monsters don't. That being said, HiPS archers are discouraged from abusing HiPS in a repetitive fashion. If the player you're fighting is too strong to defeat otherwise, then you probably shouldn't be firing arrows at him.

In a nutshell, according to the rules, the use of HiPS is fine and dandy anytime you can reasonably say you've got some form of cover or concealment. Luckily for all those stealthy folks out there Sundren is covered in that kind of stuff (especially if you're a halfling sneak). There are also a few areas where sneaking around would be pretty difficult but those areas are few and I will not name them out of respect for my sneaky friends.

Now. Ahem. If cover or concealment is required in order to be considered hidden and someone disappears from view using HiPS and the only thing for yards and yards around them is a single tree then that little sneak better be next to it when the Ice Storm (or choose your own AOE no save spell) starts falling.

Wait a moment. I think I made an oops. As I wrote that last part I realized that kind of thing could be considered metagaming. Luckily, we have all been advised to run away from someone who can use HiPS.

[TheBlankStare]

Okay. Totally serious now. If you happen to spot someone skulking around a campfire or stalking you in the wilds there is probably no reason to trust that character ever ever again unless you're playing a friendly game of hide and seek. There is no reason to trust ANYONE who acts like a sneaky scoundrel. I suppose other sneaky scoundrels might have the best chance to develop some degree of trust though.

Why people suddenly develop amnesia about stealthy characters and become buddy buddy with someone who spends all of their time on the fringes of civilization and sneaking about is beyond me. I can't figure it out and I won't even bother trying. It's kind of like when someone summons a nightmare or a vampire and everyone pats the guy on the back saying things like, "Good tactical move there, buddy!" Or worse when they think things like, "Good thing I was facing the other way at the time. That guy just created a zombie/mummy/wraith/vampire! If I'd actually 'seen' it I'd have to call him out on it."

Metagaming isn't just using OOC knowledge to your advantage it's also ignoring IC things that can grant you an advantage. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide which one is worse. :P

[Verrath]

Heh. So one of the most discussed feats EVER rears up its head again, does it.

As GBX has pointed out, HIPS can be considered a supernatural ability to conjure and slip into shadows while in plain sight of others (as the name of the feat does suggest). It's powerful, true. Which is why it's a very good thing it was moved up a few levels for the SD. (and why I find it questionable why Rangers and Assassins should get it at all, but that's another matter)

But that's what it says about the feat *shrug* And we do adhere to an FR setting...

This doesn't mean it should be overused in RP conflict, but well-placed and as a means to escape capture.... heck, I'd say if you've got it - flaunt it. On the other paw, a bloke disappearing from right in front of you is a perfectly legitimate reason to try one of the aforementioned, anonymous spells and screw him over.... rock/paper/scissors And obviously, to be a little wary when you see him next.


Okay. Did I manage to derail it again?

Most such things are probably settled beforehand with a quick OOC, as was also mentioned. If said HIPSing player is a good sport, fun can still be had by all, and possible misunderstandings/misconceptions can be cleared up with very little trouble through a quick tell, preventing irritations on all sides.

If not.... well, there is always a next time where you can avoid said player.



*edit re: Nightmare* "Oh no! A portal opened and a Nightmare is now chasing that poor wizard!! We have to help him! Poor guy must have mis-memorized the spell!" *cough* has worked for me....

[TheBlankStare]

I love the HiPS debate, Verrath. I think that every single forum that is even remotely related to Neverwinter Nights should have a similar thread where people are allowed to voice their concerns and condemn it. A separate thread should be found near the first thread where people can extol the feat's virtues.

[Edit:] Oh! And one other thing. In PnP HiPS is a supernatural ability for Shadowdancers.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

[Azulfae]

Wow blank stare you take this stuff way to seriously. Go get some icecream and take a walk in the wood or something, go for a swim, watch some TV. Stressing this much about a D&D feat is not healthy.

Personally I have not seen anyone abusing HiPS ever, not in NWN1 not in NWN2, I'msure it goes on but hells it's rare enough that I haven't seen it and I have seen some awsome game engine exploits and metagaming in my time.

Just because something is exploitable doesn't mean that players are going to exploit it. if you start screwing up the game just to thwart potential metagamers and exploiters then you are going to ruin the game for the other 99.99999999....99999..99999% of other players who are just here for a great story.

Back on the running away topic.

1. Tanglefoot
2. Subdual
3. Knockdown and beatdown.

Pallamar has seen Juggra do it to a pick pocket in the market square of Arabel. I painted the floor with that little sod but I did not kill him. The result was a good 30 mins of begging and tears flowing down in the sewers. When a halfling is on his knees looking at a half-orcs little man. He re-considers ever pick pocketing that half-orc ever again.

Suffice to say, what awsome RP that was, I had the most fun and in the end the halfing had the most fun too. We both walked away with nothing lost to either of us. Got the heart racing too which is always good when playing a game like this.

[Cornuto]

Let's keep it civil folks.

[amirlach]

Yeah but Juggra's "Little Man" is not so little. And as i recall i kinda felt sorry for the poor little hin lad.

It was awsome role play on both sides as Trystan ordered Juggra to dunk his head into a sewer puddle as he was questioned, the Halfer made attempts to speak that were interupted by *Blub blurblings* and gasps for air.

It was quite funny to watch and later others who wittnesed it reported things to the Guard that led to even more RP between Law and Order Factions, some busybody Wizards and our Group.

That little incident led to a large number of players and factions trying to turn the event to their advantage. Great stuff can happen from these kinds of events if played for fun and not just to win.


amirlach

[TheBlankStare]

A Civil Response

I know that Azulfae means well in trying to calm me down but I now feel compelled to offer a solution to the problem. Normally I wouldn't bother but I think that you all need to know that I'm not taking this as seriously as Azulfae and some people who have sent me Private Messages think. My solution, like the great 18th century thinker Jonathan Swift's modest proposals, will likely be subjected to fraudulent claims of one sided thinking, gross misinterpretation of it's premise and will likely be mocked by most of our server's population. These are the risks that I take but I'm prepared to deal with the fallout.

First, we need to figure out a way to make all of the classes equal. It's commonly stated that fighter types are more powerful at low levels and caster types are more powerful at higher levels. Since this server doesn't make you do anything at levels 1-3 we don't have to worry about casters too much. They can quickly close the power gap with their armored compatriots. In very little time they will completely outshine them. So how do we level the playing field? Warriors need bonuses to keep up with their caster friends.

There is another server that implemented something to close the gap. After level 12, if a warrior had not multiclassed, they were given a token that allowed them to add +2 to their Base Attack Bonus instead of the regular +1. They were also given a token that could be "programmed" once per day to give a +10 bonus to a single save for 24 game hours. This was applied to fighters, rangers, paladins, monks and any Prestige Classes that didn't have anything going for them except for their high Base Attack Bonus.

In order to balance rogues with this increased power of fighter types they were allowed pick all but one of their class skills to maximize. So instead of wasting ability points on intelligence (rogues should just be good at all of their skills anyway) they could put those points into something that would be useful for them. Mostly the points were put into their Con scores.

Hide and Move Silently were changed to be cross class skills for ALL classes. In order to make them class skills you had to invest in the Skill Focus Feats for both skills AND take Able Learner as well. At first the sneaky classes complained a lot. Fortunately, it wasn't long before their concerns disappeared.

Those few changes got rid of about 80% of player complaints. I think on Sundren we can do better. And it shouldn't take too much effort at all. If you look at the character creation process we really have too many points to distribute to our scores.

A better solution that was implemented on my old server was to start all scores at 10 and give you eight points to distribute as you saw fit at first level. If you wanted to, you could have an eighteen in one score or spread them out evenly. Then at every even level you could add one point to your scores where you wished. (I can't remember but I think you couldn't increase a score past it's racial maximum until you'd reached 10th level.) This really made things pretty equitable. I'd like to see something like that here but with only six points instead of eight to start. It would certainly go a long way towards eliminating all of those super strong fighters we have running around.

One thing that I really miss from PnP that I know would make a huge difference to Sundren is rolling for Hit Points. Right now we just get the maximum number that we can at level up. This is really unrealistic and totally unfair to the classes with smaller Hit Dice. We could figure out a way to roll for our Hit Points or we could just cut the amount gained from the die in half. (A barbarian would get 6hp + CON modifier that way instead of 12.)

I also think that death needs to hurt a lot more than it does. Right now it's pretty easy on characters. Sure you lose a little bit of xp and some gold but those things are relatively easy to gain back. I propose that we keep those but also require a level check upon being raised or resurrected. The roll would be as follows 1d20+Character Level vs DC 15 + Character Level. Failure on the roll would permanently remove two points of Constitution. This wold make death mean something again.

I'm running out of room for other ideas but I'm sure that the other ones I've got in mind would be deemed too radical to consider. For anyone who wants more information about Jonathan Swift, the inspiration for these last few posts, click the link at the end.

[Edit:] I can't believe that I forgot the most important and probably most fair change. We need another player wipe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Swift

[Phantom Lamb]

Careful--just cuz you can quote satire doesn't mean you're a good author with it. I think folks are obviously getting confused by the direction you're heading.

[TheBlankStare]

I blame the education system. If certain things aren't taught in schools anymore it's not my fault.

[DM Defenestrator]

Hyperbole has its place, and can be a great tool to make one's point known. But I think there's a clear difference between a satirical piece that exults the virtues of consuming babies as opposed to extreme views on how a server should be ran.

The former is almost always viewed as repulsive, disgusting, and repugnant (yes, yes, redundant). It's easy to tell it's satirical, even in its historical setting (not to say that there weren't some individuals of Swift's time that freaked out at such).

The other end of the spectrum is that extreme views on how servers should be ran are rather common place and easy to mistake for the true viewpoints of individuals. I think everyone on these forums has ran into these types of discussions that end up having some people endorsing particular ideals that might seem off the wall or extremely varied from the norm.

I know I'm even confused by your correlation between your own works in relation to Swift's. It's why I've held off from commenting, because I really can't tell when you're trying to be serious and when you're not.

[Azulfae]

TLDR , I still hate you TBS

[GodBeastX]

Let's keep it civil folks.

/Agree

What sort of can of worms did I open? Some discussions were not meant for mortal minds!

Isn't HiPS a 12 second cooldown on Sundren? I might be wrong. I know we changed SOMETHING to be. Maybe it was knockdown.

[Verrath]

HIPS has a cooldown in NWN2 by default. So does KD. I thought it was 6 seconds though. That what you meant?

*brain hurts*

[Kangleton]

I remember cutting up Herger's face. Man, you really did take that like a champ.

I have nothing constructive I feel like adding.