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**TheBlankStare** · 08-03-2009, 03:29 AM

I agree with the sentiments against metagaming though I'd have to say that some of your examples are more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than metagaming.

As far as the mountain and the Veritas goes it seems that the character in question was playing a rather smart villain who attempted to get away. Probably poor sportsmanship to run off if an attempt was made to detain him. Attempting to do so on a mountain filled with what sounds like his friends would probably have been a silly IC thing to do though.

Hoods. Hoods are a tricky thing for those who hide behind them. But, from the wiki, "No face-coverings are allowed in civilized public areas. This includes all Sundren City districts, Sundren towns, and trading posts. Hoods are allowed, but any mask or guard partially hiding the face is not lawful, save for those enlisted to protect the town.
It is lawful to wear such items in dangerous, untamed parts of the land where protections may be necessary."

If you don't follow the laws of the land expect to have it mentioned then enforced. Just because a DM isn't on to enforce a law doesn't mean that you can run around towns with your mask on. The guards would enforce said law. This kind of behavior is the worst sort of metagaming. If you get caught for breaking the law you just have to deal with it in character.

Also, for those who seem to think that their characters have rights when it comes to laws and things remember that they don't have a bill of rights to appeal to. Those in power are the ones who make the rules.

Trials were pretty quick too. They didn't have any "rules of evidence" or "established court procedure." If you were accused of a crime you went before a judge (sometimes a jury), he asked a few questions to both sides and made a verdict often without even consulting the jury. Trials rarely lasted more than half an hour or so.

It's hard to remember sometimes but there are a lot more people in civilized areas than are actually represented by NPCs visible on your screen. If you do something bad at the Trading Post, for example, odds are good that someone will see it and report it. If you're going to be a bad guy you really shouldn't want to be that around people because word gets around.

**Azulfae** · 08-03-2009, 09:09 AM

I live in a place where hoodies have been banned in the local shopping centre area.

You go shopping on a saturday afternoon and there they are, like white on rice, all over the shopping centre. Hoodies in groups of 15+ spotted all around.

I have a PC I'Morcath he wears a hood, it's his image he likes looking like a dark suspicious little goth elf. (what a cock) If a guard asks him to take it off he will, and then as soon as he is around the corner, or before even, he puts it back on again, until the next guard tells him to take it off or arrests him. Stuff you all is his mindset, stuff you, stuff sundren, stuff the system and let me be me, bunch of self riteous unimportant do gooders.

Yeah you can bother with getting him to take his hood down every 5 minutes but they know who he is by now and likely can't be bothered anymore.

The hood thing isn't metagaming it's just RP, it's playing an alignment/class.

That said, I have been the victim of horrendous metagaming a long time ago and seen a whole sharran church of 12 or more PC's assassinated down to the last person because of incidents that started with metagaming of one character knowing another was part of this cult.

20 odd players, PC's, permadead because someone could not let what was OOC sit in the back of their head and leave alone. Most ashamed was the DM's who went along with everything and just let it all happen because a couple of them were friends with the PC in question.

As far as metagaming goes this server is pretty great, I've seen it at it's worst and if it's just little stuff like someone running away even though they are lying underneath 5 people in full plate who all rolled 20+ on a str roll and they didn't even roll a Dex check to oppose before trying to make an escape! That to me is just a case of markedly bad RP. Be thankful that's the worst you are seeing here.

For people who don't play along in these situations, be aware. These players are great roleplayers, if you take the scenario even if it's to the detriment of your PC you will recieve so much kudos for playing along. It's the kind of thing that gets you votes for RPOTM and that alone is a real reward.

**Phantom Lamb** · 08-03-2009, 09:43 AM

Herger's examples aren't metagaming, but they are indeed poor sportsmanship. English-as-a-second-language makes it tough, I know

But what you're describing was bad either way.

As a DM, I run into these sorts of problems a lot. Player A wants to react quickly; Player B is typing out an emote. Player A will be able to get away with his actions unless a DM is around, because he is focused on video game mechanics and not role play.

Here's what I would suggest:

When you see yourself in a situation where you're trying to detain someone, or that would require turn-based activity for rolls and opposed rolls, ask everyone OOCly if they minded "slowing things down." Something like, "(( Hey folks, my character is suspicious and may try to detain Joe. Can we slow down and simulate turn-based action? ))"

**Lanemeyer** · 08-03-2009, 10:20 AM

I remember the happening TCAT just said. Mirakus has been attacked, and after the attack was held, a hooded and masked man showed up and was grabbed by his arm, there were more pcs, and Red Blade npcs around the man (no DM animating though). So, I believe if you want to escape from a situation like this, what would you have to roll? Well, maybe escape artist if you are good at it? At least an apposed str roll to get away from the person is holding you, more serveral tumbles once there were many people around, and even a fortitude saving to simouate the running? Of curse people would run after.

I am saying all that, because when you find your PC in a situation like this, you gotta be a good RPer and consider everything what is happening around you. Everybody wants to be famous or heros with your PCs, but there is no super-heros who can just get away without any result of actions.

**KimKandor** · 08-03-2009, 10:26 AM

Thats a great idea PL, I myself get very confused trying to follow along when there's a lot of quick onversation coming, such as a group arguing. I find that the text box need to be almost stretched to the top of the screen so I can read back and not miss some important thread. Also being a slow typer, I make mistakes when rushed and it's ugly at best. Sometimes, you just can't get a reply out quick enough before there's four others talking for you. Take pity on the old lol.

Also, I love good stories, so I try to make some up all the time, some that might be thoughts not spoken but others can read, like when reading a book or having a daydream. I hope and so far haven't seen anyone take actions from a dream or something I read to myself from a book as that would be metagaming.

The people here seem really appreciative of imagination. Staying IC when an idea crosses your mind or you have a mechanics question is sometimes hard. But it is always best tow wait while RP ensues for a quieter time to ask. For me anyway too much confusion will stop me dead in my tracks.

Ariel - Faith in people is my strength.

**GodBeastX** · 08-03-2009, 11:26 AM

I take this a whole other way, and I might make enemies for saying this, but it's the truth anyway.

If someone turns and just runs. Hey! More power to him. Want to catch him? Run first! Imagine in real life, some cops are at my door and I'm walking home. They confront me with "You live here?" As in suspection. Am I FORCED to stand there and let them grab me, arrest me, etc? Hell naw! I'm gonna turn around and book it if I'm guilty of something! And they better hope to god they run faster than me (Chances are they won't). I'd definitely do this in a world without guns and police cars!

Turning tail and running is perfectly valid RP in any situation. Just because you want to suspect me doesn't mean I have to stand there and let you. If you want to stop me, either outrun me, knock me down with knockdown, or use a hold person spell, cuz I'm booking it.

As for the grabbed person, technically it's not a strength roll in P&P to grab someone. It's a Gapple Check, which includes many other pieces of info such as touch attack. Someone might have enough dodge AC and base stat to evade your grapple. I think it wouldn't hurt to have an automatic grapple check tool that holds a person still as long as they fail their grapple checks vs yours though. That person was poor sportsman that ignored the strength roll, but I can't hate on the other guy for turning around and running.

**Thief Of Navarre** · 08-03-2009, 11:34 AM

I think sometimes its unavoidable to meta-game because you bring an aspect of yourself along with your character. PL makes a good surgestion though!

The policing of metagaming can often be worse than the crime though, my example;

On another server I played on I was trying to listen in on a conversation within earshot but behind closed doors (NWN2's game engine and they wernt whispering). I was within PnP distance of both targets, had listen maxed because I was a Duelist PrC character with Skill Focus:Listen and a +2 Racial to Listen checks (halfling) and one of the players who was speaking had a troll at me on the forums and got me banned outright from the server because they claimed it was OoC knowledge. This person subsequently became a DM months after my departure..

my point - metagaming can be inhibiting to RP, but also the policing of it can destroy the experience even more. We should all be a little sensative to each others roleplaying

**joker** · 08-03-2009, 12:25 PM

I do not think it is Meta-Gaming to get away and fight another day. I can give an example of something that happened just this past week.

Corvus goes to the Port, for whatever reason (not in a DM event). He conducts some business and on his way out of the Port he sees several PC Red Blades and Paladin (known because he has watched this person). As I was listening in on their conversation with the guards, the guard pretty much gave a general description of me as the last person entering the gates. Now, all of the PCs wanted to find this person for some reason (which I found out later). Corvus is guilty of many things but not for whatever this guy did, so he hid, but not very well. When being confronted, only one of the PCs could actually see me, so I yelled, "You will never catch me!" and then used a Nexus Shard. Granted this made him look even more guilty.

The PC that did see me, sent me a Tell and asked for a Disguise check as he had seen me before. We consulted the DM who was running the event and luck was with me that day as I did in fact get away. I had no problem cooperating with the PC who saw, because I have been around him before and he may have recognized my voice or armor from the past.

Was I wrong to get away? Maybe, but Corvus has been thrown in human cages twice and does not like the feeling. Therefore, he will run if given a chance. Now, if I am surrounded by others and have no chance to flee, I will gladly go.

As for the Veritas Mountain, I would ask that an alternate route be set up so that the Veritas members can use it instead of having walk through that fort everytime. Although I always try to sneak through it.

**Konchuu** · 08-03-2009, 12:26 PM

Well I have to agree with the Thief and Snoop,

I have an example when a slow half orc made a strength roll against Lida and told me I was cough if I did not make the strength roll against it. Sure I did and to no surprise I was caught but it made me wonder if that halt-orc would have been fast enough to grab her in the first place...

If I had rolled a Dex roll instead for instance that would have probably resulted in an argument of the kind we had when we were kids and played with toy guns.

Well the point is that the game does not have a sett of rules for everything and neither should it, and if someone play only to win then he probably will but do you really want to RP with that person afterwards?

**TheBlankStare** · 08-03-2009, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Konchuu View Post

Well the point is that the game does not have a sett of rules for everything and neither should it, and if someone play only to win then he probably will but do you really want to RP with that person afterwards?

Nope.

And I have a list of people like that.

**Fezzik** · 08-03-2009, 12:38 PM

Most of the sentiment of this I agree with. Sometimes you have to sit back and just take a breath and wait; sometimes the "opposing PC" might be new to RP and trying to figure out things. I've seen a lot of people, experienced RPers as well, emoting so fast that no one has a chance to react; I've seen DM's do it too, sometimes when you should be able to react and stop something, and sometimes, appropriately, when they need something done quick, namely an old Tormite paladin lopping off a man's head in a fit of dementia.(granted he was guilty of something but we didn't know it at the time)

BUT as for the man that didn't attack the Veritas and just "followed along", that isn't being a good villian in my eyes, thats a sure fire way get yourself killed by your own faction if you ask me. It just doesn't make common sense.

"Hey, Fred? Is that Joe?" "Yeah, it is, what's he doing with that group? New memb... what the hell! Their killing Frank!" now, next line, should be:

a) "Oh, must be a mistake, I'm sure he's just there to make sure that they don't get to fa... GLORK!"
b) "Kill him too! He's a traitor, or at least canoodling with the enemy!"

**Phantom Lamb** · 08-03-2009, 12:55 PM

GBX, turning tail and running doesn't allow for the slowness in the game. We've made it manditory to flag people hostile before hostile actions. If you sense hostility and run before you're able to be flagged, you're avoiding the spirit of the game. You're not taking the attacks of opportunities that SHOULD be applied when you navigate through adjacent squares to an enemy, for starters.

In the end, it isn't fair, but the DMs can't police it. If I found out someone did it, I would definitely frown upon it and explain to them why. But technically, they broke no server rules. I'd be very disappointed that you didn't allow for the opposition to react though. Clicking / typing faster than your counterpart is a cheesy way to win a role play interaction.

**GodBeastX** · 08-03-2009, 01:33 PM

I'm not sure what slowness in the game is?

"If you sense hostility and run before you're able to be flagged, you're avoiding the spirit of the game."

Now granted, I don't know how close the person was to the group to have attacks of opportunity and such. It sounded to me as if these two wouldn't have had hostile reaction the the PC until they got an explanation anyway. I don't think this rule applies in this case. Sensing that something can lead to hostility isn't the same as sensing that someone is trying to flag you as hostile. And they could have flagged him the moment they suspected him. Flag everybody way early and you might end up better off if you do decide to chase them. But sticking around is RP suicide, no, I don't mean that RP is bad, or that he should break rules, but let's look at the real alternatives to turning tail in this case and see if it's really RP.

(( I'm about to run, do you want to flag me hostile?

(( *Waits to be flagged*

(( I'm flagged? Okay, I'm running

Now they have the possibility to start running before me, which would NEVER happen in reality no matter what or at the same time as me (Still wouldn't happen). Not to mention, the whole element of surprise for me taking off is gone. Which would exist in real life. And they might not have even had an intent to be hostile until I just said that line of text. And given there's two of them and one of me, it is a greater chance they'll just go with the hostile assuming that their buddy wants it to go that way.

Part of the slowness of the game is realism too. I mean, sure, clicking a mouse is easier than typing, but typing out words is almost the same speed as saying them. If you're going to give a long speech and I take off in the middle, isn't that part of the surprise? It's not like they couldn't just click to follow when they see him run with the same momentum unless they didn't expect him to run.

I do agree with attacks of opportunity and blocking people though, but like I said, that assumes their reaction was already hostile and I didn't see anything that would leave me believing it was until he began to run.

It might even be metagaming to even flag him hostile by the description given. They know people don't attack factions because of faction flags and such. However, his explanation could have been "I can't fight very well, I caught an arrow" or 1000 other explanations. If it was real life, I think people have a tendency NOT to assume people you have been walking with are part of the enemy you're fighting. Also people don't have perfect 360 degree vision to see if someone is fighting anything behind them while they're in the heat of battle. I mean, when a guy in my face is trying to stab me, I don't take that opportunity to ensure my comrades are doing what they're supposed to.

Like I said, I'm saying all this on the description given in the text above. It's vague and I could be way off base for it, but 9 times out of 10 (Likely even more) the guy running should have the escape advantage which warning people and flagging rarely allows.

A lot of rules just helps ensure evil is more unsuccessful and only encourages people to break rules in a lot of cases. And the hostile flag rule I believe I was the one who came up with it when the server opened. The reason for the rule was spell mechanics. If you cast spells on people who aren't hostile, some rolls aren't made that should be made, because they only work on hostile individuals. It didn't have to do with warnings or anything. I just didn't want someone to end up dominated without any attempts to save or what not. They might have fixed this by now.

Making evil easy to catch means that you will have evils that keep quiet and wait until level 15 to say "I'm evil" because they know if they try to run from good guys, they're going to get grapple checks and such with "Roll str vs me" even though grapple checks can be made with dexterity too in P&P. And trying to win goes both ways, you might think the guy who ran away "Won" but did he really? Now he's going to have a reputation because he was witnessed running from questions. That is probably as bad as if he got caught, and it gives people things to do by looking for this guy and hunting him down.

As for the other guy, none of this applies to him. The other person in the city was well covered and already engaging in illegal activities. I imagine if you walk into a city with a mask on the guards are going to have hands on pommels, and body ready to chase. I imagine they surround you and expect you to try to run. That's two totally different cases.

WHEW that was short in my head and became long after I typed it XD I'm too opinionated. Feel free to ignore them if you want, I just give input to liven discussions.

**Kaeldorn** · 08-03-2009, 01:47 PM

The biggest issue is that you can't do multiple things at the same time.

- describing your actions through typed text
- speak/threaten
- toggle someone hostile
- grab a hold of someone using skill or ability checks
- run after him

All these things can be done in the same instant in a real situation. Because NWN2 plays real time and isn't turn-based where players have time to react etc, it is really cheap to just run off without allowing even the possibility of intervention, because there are so many actions you have to take to actually stop someone it's not even funny. The need to have a specific feat or spell at your disposal to do anything at all mechanics-wise other than outright killing a person makes it even worse.

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