Low str melee ... does it work?

[Koski]

Anyone have any experiences on the performance of low str melee? Mostly trying to point to characters who dual-wield and are NOT based on int (swashbuckler, invisible blade) for damage.

I'd love the idea of dual wield but I'm kinda discouraged the fact that I would be totally gimping my character playing wise? (No one should have to group with a person who contributes nothing, yet a person who contributes nothing still requires a group to play with).

Basic testing concluded that I'd have around 13/8/3 + 13/8 attacks at around lvl 15 (which I ofcourse wouldnt be achieving soon). The problem is that I sometimes have hard time hitting with my mages crossbow as it is (which is +7 at lvl 5) and the damage is abysmal (1d8).

Now I havent seen how the challenges change towards the end, and how gear affects the outcome. So I'd like to ask from someone who has a decent level character who does just this? Are you doing ok? Is the game challenging or is it overwhelming?

Also a bit worried about the armor factor. Quest boss monsters have humongous ATK values, while a dex based character can hope to achieve 8 armor at tops (without enchantments or mithril when factoring non-20 race a nd no +dex items) while a str based character can just equip a full plate at lvl 3 (lucky drop, goblin ears money) and get more than I ever will. Not to mention tower shield (since I was thinking of dual wield like i said). Sure as a fighter I could wear that, but all the dex I put over 12 goes to waste, so it feels kinda silly?

Its hard to draw conclusions from the point which I've reached, but does it get tons harder suddenly? Will the 1d8+1 damage one gets from longsword +1 on both hands get useless quickly? (not to mention full str barbarians hacking away 15 normal hits, 30 crits at as early as lvl 5. Numbers which my char would most likely never accomplish?)

I know its a team play server, but it kinda kills the point to team play when you can't even beat one opponent alone (by this i mean a normal goblin or gnoll) without insane luck (rolls of 20, misses on enemies). Powerful or not, a character should be fun to play and atleast for me its a major factor.

And I usually try to guess the power of my character by fighting something which is moderate or challenging in 1v1. And in sundren most of the chars I've deviced, if not cookie cutter builds have usually ended up dying on the first goblin defender :P And thats not fun...

[Kaeldorn]

If you're going to dual wield, you will either want to get at least a half-decent strength (14) or sneak attacks. Because otherwise, even if you hit them, you won't do any noticeable damage.

If you're dual wielding longswords, you shouldn't even go for a dex higher than 17 base and invest all you can in str (items/spare ability points/whatever you have), because dexterity won't raise your attack bonus. If you start out at 16 dex 14 str, you put your 4th level point in dex and go for str from there on. By level 12 you should easily have obtained 18 dex and 18 strength through items. You can wear a breastplate/chain shirt first, and a mithral full plate if you ever gets your hands on one. You will also gain AC from the two weapon defense and improved two weapon defense feats.

But really.. Samurai is hands down the best option for dual wielding non-light weapons. You get all the feats for free and can run around with low dex in a tin can. They're a tad on the 'too strong' side even, for my tastes.

[Zoberraz]

It's a laudable worry. Despite being a 'cool' concept for an RP build, NWN2 and D&D 3.5 edition was simply not built to really support the finessy character types as far as combat was intended.

The clunking armored warrior with sword and shield, the two-handed weapon berserker, the armored battle cleric... these will shine in-game with a very straightforward stat and feat approach.

It's not that other builds are not possible, or won't have some level of effectiveness, but the numbers of hoops they need to jump through, the resources concerning feats and skills to be effective, will be greater... and perhaps not quite as effective as the 'simpler' approaches would be.

Once I had a stronger melee fighter on hand and I fought against a duelist. Parry was great and all, giving him some staying power, but at level 10 or so he simply did not have enough of it to definitely stop me from trouncing him overtime because of his fairly weak damage output.

On the other hand, I once saw a halfling fighter whom was a shortsword specialist get attacked by 3 fire giants and hold them off for a long period of time. That fighter was a very high dex build with fullplate and tower shield, dodge, weapon finesse and improved combat expertise... so, her AC was extremely high for the low magic serve we were on. On the other hand, her shortsword did such piddly amounts of damage in return that she had been unlikely to really kill a giant and survive the situation through attrition.

Whenever that halfling warrior faced up against DR, she was extremely ineffective. I know the player of the character had great frustrations over her ineffectiveness on so many things fighters were offensively relied on for.

So...

Yeah. Non combat brute builds - fancy combat builds, that is - sort of get the short end of the stick in D&D 3.5 edition. People play them more because they are fun concepts, than for their actual effectiveness.

[Koski]

I got so many nice character concepts I would like to act upon, but I feel like im forced to powerplay at every corner just to make my game experience even remotely enjoyable. And from what I've seen, I prefer not to try for classes which require DM approval. :\

[Allielliot]

Well I don't quite do this, but i made a dwarven ranger who has gotten to lvl 12. he is more str based, but he doesn't wear heavy armor. He actually wears a chain shirt and has terrible AC for lvl12. I really don't think he's useless because the amount of damage he can put out plus the low lvl ability to use longstrider, makes him great for killing mages, and healers, something that those bulky full plate fighters, can't really do much with before they get a fire ball or two dropped on them. Plus the high reflex rolls, and high heal make him really nice to back up a "heavy" fighter. IF you know those five casters over there are going to be dropping fire balls and lightning bolts it's really nice to have someone with the relfex to run out front, dodge the spells, and kill the casters, so that your heavy fighters don't just get rained on by spells that their AC can't do anything for them about. As for the lvl 15 stuff if you ever get there. you will probably spend some time in the mossdale. There are places there where a high reflexes fighter or super high thief is essentially priceless because the traps block the path, and the amount of damage that they do to people is just staggering. All of this to say that, later on, when it would matter, and even early on the Dex build wouldn't be useless Maybe not the tank you were hoping for, but with a little creativity, and buffs from your party you can be very useful. Good luck finding a build that works for you. Also, the server isn't buit for being able to fight anything 1v1. Early one you see those fighter able to do it, but before long they don't want to go anywhere without a wizard or someone to buff them because the enemies are too much for even them, in contrast teh casters can't do much fro themselves early on, but later they get enough buff to put the fighter tank to shame. Just have to find a group and have some fun.


*edit* also if you have good Rp, and don't get your group killed, most people won't care too much if you're useful in a fight or not. It is an Rp server after all.

[Peridan]

And while samurai may have the ability to dual wield and run around in full plate, they still should abide by the rules when it comes to weapon heaviness. Light on the off hand, heavy on the main. Otherwise their ab goes down an extra few points, and they're no better off than any other character who tries to dual wield longswords.

[Silas North]

It's possible, just difficult, to make a dex build that can indeed stand up to big bruisers. However, the bottom line is that unless you plan on making something that relies upon sneak attack, you will HAVE to have Swashbuckler imo.

If you are going for a one handed build, keep Duelest in mind. Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Duelest 8 will net you someone with full BAB. Start off with 16 in INT and get a +2 INT item (Definitely attainable in Sundren), make a +2 rapier, get Power Attack (which still works with all the Duelest's abilities), Now lets say you put two elemental enchantments on it for 1d6 dmg each, Weapon Specialization: Rapier, and just for kicks, we'll only say you have 14 Str

Result while Power Attacking: 4d6+17 per hit. (Use Florish for an extra 2d6 on hit)
And this is not even the strongest weapon you can make in Sundren, though making something better will take time and money. And don't forget you can HASTE yourself briefly and the Rapier has a high threat range.

If you keep up your parry investment and have 22 Dex by lvl 15 (thanks to the help of a +2 dex item) your parry will be 31, EASILY able to defect most blows coming your way, and with Improved Parry, you'll counter with the above die just rolling 5 above their attack roll. Have a bard buddy cast Greater Heroism on you and use Inspire Competence, and your parry will be in the 39-range.

Just be cautious of the fact that you are NOT a tank unless it is against one particularly strong target. For situations like that, you take the point. Otherwise, get your butt behind the Dwarven Defender. Also be cautious if your enemy brought True Strike. No build is perfect.


With dual-wielders... well, I'll go into that later. But it often comes down to the same thing: YOU NEED SOME SWASHBUCKLER. There are some sneaky builds that actually rely upon high AB rather than sneak attack, and still allow you to do sneaky things like HiPS and set traps. Damage resistance does not help too much against an elemental damaging trap doing 15d10 and stunning them afterward. Builds like that DO get expensive though...

[Kaeldorn]

You can't get 1d6 elemental damage on weaponry unless a DM gives it to you or if it's a special item. The standard enchantments are 1d4.

[Silas North]

Still that's 2d4+2d6+17 per hit. Still not bad.

[Subal]

i must agree it sucks being a higher lvl and not being able too really solo at all, but in the end it makes the group stronger too be one way or the other.
Your character cant be the best tank / best dps , unless you go powerbuild and have nothing too work with rp wise.

Decide if you want medium armor with high ass attk, or high ass armor and cant hit the broad side of a barn when in the middle of the afternoon with the sun at your back...Damn i hate that.*sighs*

or find a medium somewhere

[Koski]

i must agree it sucks being a higher lvl and not being able too really solo at all, but in the end it makes the group stronger too be one way or the other.
Your character cant be the best tank / best dps , unless you go powerbuild and have nothing too work with rp wise.

Decide if you want medium armor with high ass attk, or high ass armor and cant hit the broad side of a barn when in the middle of the afternoon with the sun at your back...Damn i hate that.*sighs*

or find a medium somewhere

I dont really mind the not being able to solo part on itself. Though it IS a bit ridiculous that lets say a lvl 12 dex based character is just as likely to die on the goblins as a lvl 3 str based character (armor+dex caps at 8 without mithral, save for full plate, which caps at 9 but doesnt benefit from dex past 12(/14 if you take the silly plate). Doubling that with the fact that if the charater at lvl 12 dual wields, his damage output would be something like 1d6 at 9/4 + 1d6 9(/4) while a lvl 3 fighter would propably be able to dish out 2d6+4 damage with just one hit with the AB of +6 or 7.

Well it kinda takes out the feeling of achievement one should have after spending 9 weeks developing your character to that point. Not to factor in time when you are just plain unable to achieve a level during the week your level cap has raised.

I am however glad to hear wizards and casters work quite the opposite way, where after weeks of playing your character will actually represent the achievement you've made. Maybe I should just forget all concepts of melee and stick with my Wizard for now on.

[Peridan]

I don't know about that. My sorc is about to hit level 6, and I know that once he does I won't be able to replenish my spells after every encounter. And with a party, he'll be able to deal out maybe three spells per fight to be able to make it to the next rest timer.

[Allielliot]

Your AB on the dual wielder seems pretty low as well. My dwarf ranger has +15/+10/+5 at lvl 12 in both hands. Has a dwarven war axe 1d10 plus some enchants in main hand and a short sword 1d6 plus some enchants + a few more damage for str. in each hand. He can put out damage fast enough that the low AC become less of a problem because things are dead before they get too many chances to hit me. If you did this with a dex based char then you lose some damage and AB, but you can also get the two weapon defense feats, and add another bonus to you AC and PArry. Just don't put a heavy weapon in your off hand. That kills the ab a little, especially if you're supposed to be a dex based char.

[Iso]

Taking a few levels in Rogue or Ranger can do wonders for any character. A Rogue/Sorc for example can give themselves Shield and Protection From Evil while acting as a backstabber for a party, wearing Light Armor. You probably can get feats that will remove your Arcane Spell Failure and then you can be enjoying 2d6 sneak attacks in no time, backed up with generous application of Magic Missile. Once you hit a high enough level, using a spell like Ghoul Touch can net you three-four free sneak attacks on a paralyzed victim, bringing even more value to your sneak attacks.

Not only that, but you can use Arcane scrolls even before UMD. Your high Charisma and high Dexterity mean you can focus into ranged combat if you so chose, or even into more social avenues as a diplomat or merchant. If you're still worried about skillpoints, which you should be getting quite a few of, consider taking the Able Learner feat and keep your skills right where you want them.

Of course, a Swash/Wiz also has the same sort of flexibility open to her with the added bonus damage that she'll be gaining from a high Intelligence.

[Silas North]

Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 6/ Cleric 3
Race: Human

STR- 12
DEX- 17 (20 by lvl 15) (22 with Deft Leather Gloves)
CON- 12
INT- 14
WIS- 12
CHA- 9 (might want to nab a +Cha item)

Feats- Luck of Heroes, Able Learner, 2 Weapon Fighting, Dirty Rat, Weapon Focus: Short Sword, 2 Weapon Defense, Improved 2 Weapon Defense, Improved Parry, Weapon Specialization: Short Sword, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric, Defensive Arts

Important skills: Parry and Use Magic Device

With +2 Short Swords (tough to get but far from impossible), your AB will be 21 while dual-wielding, which is respectable on its own. Utilize UMD to cast a Heroism scroll, then cast Bless and Aid. Your AB shoots up to 25 while dual-wielding and your parry will be 30 (NOT counting any Parry you gain from equipment).

Cast Bulls Strength and Fox's Cunning and you will be doing around 20 dmg a blow. High DR/- characters are still an issue, but far from unbeatable.

Your AC with +2 Leather Armor will be somewhere in the mid to late 20's if the rest of your equipment is decent and you cast Shield of Faith. This AC is equal to most offensive minded warriors, like Frenzied Berserkers, certain Weapon Master builds, and 2-hander fighters.

Living Undeath makes you immune to sneak attacks and crits.

Best part, you have 152 skill points and Able Learner to play with by lvl 15. That is MORE than enough to make yourself useful in places other than just battle. Just remember to invest in Parry and UMD. Also, you will need at least 4 Tumble for Dirty Rat and 4 Spellcraft for Practiced Spellcaster.

There are many ways to modify this build as well to match a character of your liking.

The credit of this build goes rightfully to Sundren and the Sundevs for adding a lot of nifty things to expand on playstyle options.

Another to consider: Swashbuckler 3/ Bard 12