Skillpoints, how to treat them and what do they represent?

[Fezzik]

Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)

Dangit! I must have been a physical martard when I was young! I couldn't climb a knotted rope worth a bean!

OH... and I'm obviously blind too considering I can't find something that's out in plain sight.... * sigh* Time to go to the eye doctor again...

[TheBlankStare]

Well . . we've got the same number of skills as PnP has because of all of Sundren's custom skills now. Lore used to be used for as a catch all for those knowledge skills. It didn't exist in PnP. Now it's there for qualifying for some prestige classes and identifying items.

We don't have Handle Animal or Ride, but we can't ride horses anyway and animals are much better killed for their parts than handled in any peaceful manner.

As far as bards and their high scores in certain skills . . . well . . . it's what they're good at and what they've been good at since 3.0 came out. It's just what they happen to be good at.

A starting third level human bard with an 18 Charisma could easily have a base Diplomacy skill of +17 with all modifiers. Even a bard with a 12 Charisma could have a Diplomacy skill of +14. Bards had spells and inspirations that make things go up even higher than that and affect their entire party.

Diplomacy +6
Charisma +4
Background Feat: Artist +2
First Level Feat: Silver Palm +2
Human Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) +3

Other classes could accomplish the same insane things with other skills in a similar manner with the proper planning and the proper selection of feats. They could also accomplish it using the Able Learner feat and multiclassing at the appropriate levels.

I don't know that the DCs for skills need to be changed at all. When compared to all the other classes, fighter type have absurd attack bonuses, numbers of attacks, and hit points. Caster types can have absurd save DCs on their spells pretty easily too. Foes shouldn't necessarily have higher Armor Classes, damage outputs or saves to counter those Player Character abilities either.

I think Sundren works pretty darn well when it comes to keeping everything balanced. Good work and keep it up!

[Late Edit for the responses after PL response! You guys are quick!]

Bluff and Diplomacy accomplish different things as well. Bluff should really only be used to give someone a momentary advantage in a specific situation. It can be used pretty much in the moment and really has no lingering effects (unless the bluff led to some unfortunate consequences for the one who was bluffed later). Diplomacy takes time to work but should have longer lasting effects.

Using Diplomacy to convince someone to jump off a cliff should never work. Convincing someone to follow you into a scary hole in the ground could work depending on the circumstances. Those things are what magic is for. Charming someone could work, for example, if you could convince the charmed foe it was the only way to save your life. Dominating someone would just work because you've robbed them of their free will.

Using social skills on players is always tricky because not everyone understands how they work or is willing to go through the effort to properly role play the situation or likes to think that their character can be influenced at all. I don't even bother to have my more socially oriented characters use them on people who have ignored them in the past and sometimes I just leave the area because it irks me so much. It's just not worth the effort to go through the RP involved in social skills, click on the skill roller and then have the attempt ignored. In a PvP duel on the other hand, it's impossible to have an attack roll or a save DC ignored. *sighs* Such is life.

[Cirion]

All my skill rolls are attempted with RP, not like I'm one to just cram skill rolls down someone's throat without sufficient IC backing. Neither do I assume it's the Jedi Mind Trick, not capable of turning blackguards into paladins, nor do I believe it's capable of making people instantly forgive their enemies. Rather its more useful in taking the first baby-step towards the greater goal

Gbbishop, I'll no doubt roll a high number when trying to use diplomacy on your dwarven character. Opposed to last night's player-event where Cirion tried to use means to save Yashia's life but i kept rolling 2's and making it worse.

And Kaeldorn. My main problems had been a few months back; contrast to last week. I had recently tried RPing and using diplomacy roll with others, everything went over quite well; or maybe too well, for I was shocked. But I've noticed many others, in the further past, trying to just simply ignore my character's words or they instead heed the other character nearby, whose diplomacy is horrible and cha is pitifully low, say the same thing but get favorable results. Now that was like a slap to my face.


Another problem I have would be with characters that, those with lack of needed skill(s), trying to accomplish certain tasks. Examples being:
-Something, long ago, Uri brought up about 3 people failing Knowledge:Arcana check in one of his events. Yet the three people still went on talking like they were people with years of learning about magic.
-Another example here that I have problem with. When people with no diplomacy skill, nor charisma, go about trying to inspire others or eloquently convince people to go along with an idea; and I mean to really attempt in convincing another on something very delicate and "touchy". They should at least add the character stuttering, have him/her ramble on about something else mid-debate, accidentally insult someone they're talking to, or some other method of showing low conversational skills.

Others may disagree with what i just said there, but its still going about actions without the required talent. Its like someone talking about detailed building designs though lack of Knowledge: Architecture; giving extensive medical ( though by more mundane, not divine) attention but without the needed Heal ranks. Skill rolls would be needed to give some emphasis of how your character would really handle a situation; not how you'd wish yourself to, given the circumstances.

[Intrepid42]

It might be helpful to look at it from the other side of the coin.

Someone who roleplays actions/knowledge/abilities/traits that are not backed up stat/skill-wise will probably get along okay most of the time. However, eventually another player or DM is going to ask for a relevant skill roll, and that negative modifier is going to be embarassing.

I can see how intensely annoying it is Cirion, but those points in Diplomacy are not going anywhere. You are not at risk of being "caught short".

[gbbishop]

playing a character that is less charismatic than you is... difficult... i'd say more so than playing one that is more charismatic. but that is just my opinion. people who can play characters with greatly differing social/mental stats are by far the most fun to play with.

i have trouble with the low charisma toons my self.... i usually have to add curses and foul behavior or poor hygiene into the equation to get anywhere close.

over all though pretty much everyone who has posted seems to be on the same page.. well some might be on the one next to it.

that said i hope that those who like to ignore rolls and never loss at anything read some of the comments and take heed.

if everyone rp'd on par with cirion.... well that might be asking a lot, but it's something to strive for.

[Urithrand]

Getting back to the original question of this topic, repeated skill rolls are not necessary. This isn't Sundren rules, this is basic PnP ruling, which it's stated that 10 minutes of conversation is covered by a single skill roll. Rolling diplomacy after every comment you say isn't needed and it also very irritating. The same goes for bluff, you don't need to roll it for every lie in each conversation, you just need to roll for the conversation itself. The subsequent roll would then be applied to each lie's DC without having to roll again.

Of course, as I said before, many people will do this differently, but I know on a personal level I stop taking peoples' RP seriously if they just keep rolling dice every few seconds. The way I've stated it here is the D&D recommended way of doing it.

[gbbishop]

in other words... WAIT FOR THE DM TO ASK FOR YOUR ROLL! or something like that.