Skillpoints, how to treat them and what do they represent?

[Deathevn]

Hello Sundrites! Auril sends her regards to all!. I recently had a fairly lengthly conversion with one of our fellow men at arms regarding skills, how they should impact the world, and when they should be used. In general terms its a murky subject. How powerful should these dicerolls be? should high schemes be reveled beacuse of a godo roll? Or should a social 1 end in disaster or just influence the outcome and it be mostly in the hands of the player? It has to have some influence deffintly, thats why the skills are there and several classes are dedicated primary to skill rolls. What does sundren think? Is there a hard and fast rule regarding it? Or is most of the people in these great lands inept at doing anything but sword and spell?

Thanks for taking your time for reading this and any imput would be awsome!!

Ps: I am not trying to solve anything here, I know its always going to be up to the individual, I am just trying to get an overall feel

[Kaeldorn]

This topic has already come up a long while back.

There are no hard rules for it, but it's more or less general concensus that rolls should not be spammed, but that they can definitely have an influence on the outcome of things if used. You'll often easily tell the 'good sports' from the bad, though. Some folks just never want to fail at anything.. others can create both serious and comedic RP from failure as well as success.

[gbbishop]

well i think that some skill rolls are very important... but with out a dm to set dcs it's very subjective... one thought ask the opposition to set a dc for you. that said just rolling a skill diplomacy for instance does not make people follow you... PCs as a rule have free will.

then there are skills like sense motive... where you roll it and you know about how well you are reading the person... but really it should be a blind roll with you knowing only the end result...

so yeah i guess the long/short is use skill rolls if:

-they help with the story (i think they went that way - track DC 32)

-they do something your charater is cappable of and you are not... ie giving an insipring speach... (but at least try) use the roll to "lend weight to your words.

-or some one asks you to roll one.

i have heard this and correct me if im wrong DMs
when in dm event - dont roll skill unless you are asked.

another good rule of thumb is if you roll it keep it... even if it is bad... dont just ignore it. or else what's the point.

[gbbishop]

well said kael! my post seems rather long winded in comparison.

[Deathevn]

See, I am not really looking for a ruling on what is done, how it should be done or what not as it tends to be. I am just appealing to the crowd in general and trying to get some opinions beacuse it is an odd topic, given as gbbishop said, PC's have free will, and how far can you take a skill check for an inspiring speech, without feeling inspired as a player?(( to take his example))

Just sticking my neck out and seeing who bites!

[pylepp]

Hello all. I am new and have yet to play on the server, but from a pnp perspective people should rp them as necessary and when they think it will have an impact on what they are doing. It is hard to find an "online game" or "mmorpg" where people will discipline themselves to committ to such a concept because the game is so fast and alive. It's easier to take a moment when your playing pnp and decide what you are doing and consider the consequences. I think it is a great challenge to the individual to try and incorporate that into an online game where it is much more difficult to determine success and failure because the dm isn't always in direct involvement of the situation. But i will tell you from personal experience, it can be done and is exceptionally rewarding for all of the players involved.

[Fezzik]

Some people don't use the skills at all, even though a PC might have an incredibly high diplomacy for example, the other player might not care and ignore the roll if the first player doesn't type it out well. Lets face it, most people in the world don't have really high diplomacy skills ( we ain't Henry Kissinger or Adilade Stevens!). And things can only be expressed so far in the written word or better written ex. apparently the Gettysburg address sounds way better on paper than Ab Lincolns apparently squeaky voice!

We don't get facial expressions, body language etc most of the time because there isn't enough time to type it all out and say what you want to say. We have to use our imaginations and hope that the other people are thinking the same thing. I don't think people should just bat away someones skill roll if they're trying to get a certain point across, but if it's just a silly roll take it in stride and move on, sometimes it's hard to do, but really.... Can't we all just get along?

[Urithrand]

-they help with the story (i think they went that way - track DC 32)

This comment made me chuckle and also a little concerned. Skill roll DCs is a personal bugbear of mine, and I would just like to point out that this DC would be appropriate to maybe tracking a rat across solid rock. That's an extremely high DC for any action. If you don't know what an appropriate DC should be then ask a DM to mediate or contact a more experienced player to see what they would suggest.

[Delzoun]

Dunno if you mind that I borrow from a posting in the DM forum, but here is a brief snippet about DCs from a DM's standpoint, so if you and your friends are Self DMing, as you often must. Then here is something to help.

D20 SRD:

Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

Hopefully these guidelines and links can help you all develop more realistic DC's and understandings. Think of the difficulty as the bold words above and then you can get an Idea of the DC.

[Phantom Lamb]

I'd like to add that NWN2 has a smaller set of skills than 3.5 PnP, but you get the same points to distribute. That's why you'll often see bards and the like with absurd scores in relevant skills--they have nowhere to spread them out. As such, NWN2 DCs should be a little higher than their PnP counterparts.

[Cirion]

And according to this link, it says if I roll high enough I can make the regular helpful NPCs into fanatical followers.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRDiplomacy_Skill

Though that link can lead to figuring out skill checks for other actions as well.

Some people don't use the skills at all, even though a PC might have an incredibly high diplomacy for example, the other player might not care and ignore the roll if the first player doesn't type it out well. Lets face it, most people in the world don't have really high diplomacy skills ( we ain't Henry Kissinger or Adilade Stevens!). And things can only be expressed so far in the written word or better written ex. apparently the Gettysburg address sounds way better on paper than Ab Lincolns apparently squeaky voice!

This is true, only a very few have decent diplomacy skill - most characters don't bother putting ANY ranks into it. So the few times when I make use of my 30-something diplomacy for my character, needless to say I could basically win every single talk like that. Though the irony is that it can feel to be possibly one of the least used skills in Sundren, though I'm largely to blame for making use of it only once a month or so.

Though I have noticed its funny how a few players, some DMs as well, that'll prefer I make Bluff rolls when I'm trying to misdirect someone or speak a half-truth or have a character speak partially out of ignorance. Though little care for, or even bother in asking for, Diplomacy rolls much of the time. Seeming many players are more intent on "catching the character in a lie" than taking consideration to another's talent in debating over a subject.

However, overall I have to actually point out that the charisma-related skills are hardly used; compared to spellcraft, tumble, spot, stealth, or other skills heavily used for combat-orientated situations. Many seems to ignore Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff((except if its needed for Feint feat)), or the Knowledge skills.

Also this isn't an attack on Anyone! I'm making that clear because whenever I say stuff like this, someone reacts as though I'm insulting them and then I get flamed. No joke here.

[gbbishop]

lol but i think they are still pretty good guidlines... and sundren has more skill than standard nwn2... so like 5 higher PL?

also i was just posting a dc that my druid often hits.... i do realize that is pretty high so maybe not a great example. but it would certainly instill confidence in my companions that i do know where i am going.

oh and thanks delzoun for the run down i was gonna post from memory and would have been right but i wasnt sure.... so i left it. 'sides your list is a ton more informative/detailed than mine would have been.

[gbbishop]

plain and simple cir folks hate getting dice rolled out of freewill...

that said if you are trying to convince my character to do something... and I am 'personaly/OOC' hesitant. then you roll a 52 diplomacy. i would feel more obligatied to go along with you... that to me is just good self dming.

[Kaeldorn]

Cirion, while I agree on the things you state, I think you misunderstood Fezzik's statement. He said that people are free to ignore a skill roll if it's not backed up with RP. Because even though the character may have a high value in that skill, what the player types out might not be all that convincing.

While I personally think a straight up ignore is a little much (except if it's ONLY a skill roll and no effort is even taken to describe what a character says or does), even with no DM's around it's fair to use circumstance modifiers that are incredibly high. To the point of making the roll obselete.

Example: the 'official rules' state that someone with insane bluff rolls can actually have someone convinced that jumping off a cliff will teach one to fly (despite -30 modifiers or something). That is of course completely ridiculous, and anyone is completely free to point out the bluffer as an idiot in this case. Rolls only determine how well something comes across, not if a point made is immediately considered valid on a high roll. Most of the higher DC's examples in the official guidelines especially for intimidate/bluff/diplomacy are complete nonsense to show off how amazingly you can abuse NPCs to your advantage in a non-serious DM'ed campaign in old fashioned PnP D&D. They should be taken with a grain of salt.


Especially in the case of conversational skills, I believe it best to look at the situation (relationships between characters included) first, what is said second, and the roll third.

I say situation first because that is in real life also the primary influence on one's actions/reactions. Possible 'states' a character can be in (like threatened/at ease/in pain/tired/busy) and how he/she initially perceives the other (friend/neutral/foe) are very major.

Second comes what is said. Does it make sense? Is it relevant? Are arguments brought up that would personally affect my character in some way? Is it well spoken and fitting to the situation, and does it come across as natural for him/her, or is he/she trying too hard? (in some situations, the latter could actually be favorable. Especially when dealing with child-like characters)

If all or some of the above is true and could plausibly make my character significantly change her mind or dig her heels even further into the sand, then I'd look at the roll. In fact, without it the roll shouldn't even be made, but that's my personal opinion

To quote Fezz again:

Lets face it, most people in the world don't have really high diplomacy skills ( we ain't Henry Kissinger or Adilade Stevens!). And things can only be expressed so far in the written word or better written ex. apparently the Gettysburg address sounds way better on paper than Ab Lincolns apparently squeaky voice!

That's what diplomacy is.. it's like, the verbal and somatic components of the magic we call speech. How well it comes across. If you outright ignore that when it suits you, you're poorly covering for something you don't want to happen. It always affects to some degree, although particularly hard-headed types like politicians, paladins and religious fanatics, lunatics and overzealous anarchists might be swayed less easily on specific topics conflicting with the ideals (or lack thereof) they got stomped into their heads.

[Urithrand]

I'd also like to respectfully disagree with PL's statement here - though it's possible that some characters may take less skills than they would in PnP, they are still restricted to their character level +3 in any class skill and so the task would still be appropriately difficult for a character specialised in the skill at a certain level. Just my way of doing things, and it goes to show that there are a plethora of different opinions on this subject, between DMs as well as players. As long as no-one's grossly abusing the system, there's no reason for us to start hurling fireballs at any players. We all play a little differently, and as long as the RP's good then there's really no problem.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!