Cleric Spells And Their Gods

[CynicalMadness]

This came up during a RP session so I thought I would ask Sundren..

When a Cleric cast a divine spell can you roll a Knowledge Religion to determine who their patron is? Is there any other way to determine? What about when then pray for their daly allotment of spells?


Cyn

[Phantom Lamb]

Not necessarily. They could easily pray to their gods without naming them. Think about our real religions and how often we refer to "Him" or "my Lord." Ambiguous terms.

[Intrepid42]

I do not know of any house rule or Sundren precedent for this, but my understanding is that in PnP a cleric uses a holy symbol of their deity to cast. The symbol could potentially be disguised as part of a larger work, or the symbol held out of view, naturally.

If the other player consents, this might be your best approach.

[gbbishop]

well the main reason i can see for wanting to know this is you are trying to ferret out evil cleric... and well, they wouldn't be very evil or free from persecution for that matter, if they broadcast it. some of my favorite fiction involves evil that is well hidden and cunning and devious. now if it was a spell that is specific to a given deity or their potfolio.... then you might have some precedence.

as for the intrepids comment yes the material component for almost all devine spells is a holy symbol. so yes it does have to be present/used... but again evil best be very good a disugising it.

[Deathevn]

Well I think you would have some idea? Depending primiarly on the diety. People Like Auril, bane, helm, would be easy to spot at a pace, Shar? maybe not so much.. but as far as trying to regulate that its a little.. touch and go as far as setting rules up for it. I guess it all depends on who is playing at the time and what they want to be allowable?

[vexxen]

with the holy symbol being present, does this mean it needs to be "displayed"? just because you need an object for something doesn't mean it needs to be in plain view, or in anyone's sight for that matter, it could be a symbol around the neck that tucks away under armor etc.

don't know if i explained what i meant properly but hopefully you pick up what i mean

[Iso]

There are many things an appropriately educated (Knowledge: Religion; whatever skill the DMs say) person may be able to pick up on and deduct by paying attention to the correct things, such as during a Turn Undead attempt, if the Undead are Turned or Rebuked. That can potentially help you find out if they're not Good aligned.

Another thing you can try to find out is when they pray for their spells (Assuming the player represents this). If you know someone prays for their spells at midnight, is not good aligned, and they like to run around wearing black and purple, you can begin your deductions from there.

I assume a lot of players will instantly be able to call at least one evil deity to mind that the said Cleric may serve, but it could just as well be a priest of Selune who for some reason or another channels Negative Energy instead of Positive Energy.

One particularly nasty deity also has a number of churches and cults set up in other names, in the names of gods she murdered and absorbed, which she receives worship from in an entirely different way than that of her primary church. No mortal could be expected to know it's really her, so even if one of her priests was quite open about their faith in one of these dodgy churches, you could only really know who they worship if a divine entity told you.

Most priests who want to be found will not hide it. If they do not want to be found, however, good luck, because they're vessels of the Divine.

[gbbishop]

well said iso...

i guess the best thing to do is ask the player if know:relig would help them understand their charater better... and go from there.

[CynicalMadness]

I think each one of you hit upon some good points to this topic.

1. Cleric spells require a Divine Focus. And must be manipulated during the casting of a spell. Its basically a material component and must be held/grasped/touched/held aloft or some such.

2. Based upon the individual Deity requirements. Clerics must pray to their god to receive spells. This usually requires verbally speaking though some deities require silently praying or even a sacrifice of some kind.

3. Almost all spells require a Verbal component in there casting. For arcane its based on Draconic "power words" and for clerics it a from of a request. High One Bless me! Some form of veneration / homage paid. If you want to get technical it shouldn't be more that 3 seconds for most spells. You must speak in a strong voice.

Now with that said. I'm a old school PnP player that has found it a bit difficult at times to adjust to the 3.5 rules. I feel as if the 'core' of what DnD was has been destroyed. And I admit that my views are a bit skewed at times. And with the limitations of NWN2 I tend to find small inaccuracies and inconsequential nonsense to be bothersome. I don't intend to a rule lawyer or a RP cop. I just want to know what the standard is so I can adjust my play style to fit the norm. And lets face it, if you don't own a stack of hardbacks it hard to understand certain concepts at times. Like the importance the clergy plays in the everyday lives of the average Farunian (?).

Iso does bring up an interesting subject. I believe he/she is speaking of Shar. And if thats the case then there are very few churches that operate in this manor. If I'm not mistaken, her church is the only one that operates with this "terrorist cell' like structure with the demand of secrecy so prevalent. Most churches whether good or evil are in plain site and it feasible to find a temple to Bane right next to a church of Helm lets say. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, just because an cleric devotes himself to and 'evil' deity and does his bidding does not mean that said cleric need to hide the fact he pays homage to that deity. Hide the fact that they sacrifice virgins in a dark ritual.. sure. But he should still be out in the public eye spreading the glory of his god and speaking about how wonderful it is to be within his gods good graces. In hope of gaining influence and attracting followers and ultimately power with in his church for himself and his chosen patron. While keeping the dastardly evil deeds that may be required of him to fulfill the 'divine scheme' set out before him by his Church and if he's lucky/faithful enough his god.

And before i forget.. Clerics give off an Aura linked to their gods moral and ethical compass. I wonder how NWN overlooked that..

I think I i got side-tracked here.. I agree with gdbiship. A simple Tell is perhaps the best way to go.

Cyn

[Kaeldorn]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, just because an cleric devotes himself to and 'evil' deity and does his bidding does not mean that said cleric need to hide the fact he pays homage to that deity. Hide the fact that they sacrifice virgins in a dark ritual.. sure. But he should still be out in the public eye spreading the glory of his god and speaking about how wonderful it is to be within his gods good graces. In hope of gaining influence and attracting followers and ultimately power with in his church for himself and his chosen patron. While keeping the dastardly evil deeds that may be required of him to fulfill the 'divine scheme' set out before him by his Church and if he's lucky/faithful enough his god.

Good point made here, and Sundren even supports that approach. Worshipping gods like Bane, Talona and Shar is not regarded as 'wrong' as far as the laws go. As long as you register yourself (Vellik Act). Now, for Sharites that's probably not going to happen. However, Banites and Talonans can openly state who they are. Although they'll likely have eyes aimed at them constantly, no-one can legally do anything to you for worshipping one of those gods. Deities like Auril, Talos and Loviatar have completely free reign. The only sorts that might have a harder time are Cyricists and Velsharoon followers.

And before i forget.. Clerics give off an Aura linked to their gods moral and ethical compass. I wonder how NWN overlooked that..

In vanilla NWN itself it serves no purpose. I thought of granting a feat or something like that, but it's not high priority.

[Iso]

In vanilla NWN itself it serves no purpose. I thought of granting a feat or something like that, but it's not high priority.

Don't the Domains the individual Priest venerate also have a super strong connection to their heart and soul? Like, to be a Cleric who takes the Chaos domain is really really saying something about you.

In a way, isn't that already just something very obvious marked on the char sheet, or did you have like some kind of Aura Sight thing when you mentioned a Feat - that'd be awesome if you got around to it one day

[gbbishop]

hmm i had forgot about that aura business... hmm indeed.

[Kaeldorn]

There is already an 'Aura Sight', it's called Detect Alignment

Paladins have it, Blackguards too I think. What I meant with the feat is simply adding the correct kind of aura to characters in the form of a feat. Keep in mind that in NWN2, all class abilities/racial abilities/background notices on the char sheet etc. are handled as feats.

Then, once people have such aura feats, things can be done with it in script. For instance, someone with an evil aura (not just evil alignment!) could be harmed in some way for entering a specific area. Or exactly the opposite, where only the high priests of an evil deity are able to enter an area and not be harmed. Creatures with some specific sixth sense can have their AI made to respond differently to PC's with varying aura's, conversations with NPC's could go different ways, etc.