Spellbooks, Holy Symbols and Thieves' Tools.

[Urithrand]

Looking at lists of items with PL, I thought it would be awesome to implement the PnP rules for these three items. A wizard should need a spellbook to cast magic, and a cleric should need a holy symbol to pray for spells, just as a rogue would need tools to pick a lock or disarm a trap. Would it be possible to implement an inventory only item (non-usable) which represents these abilities? There are already scripts which block arcane/divine spells so I can imagine that it would be possible to implement these two, not so sure about the thieves' tools though.

This would also add a whole new level of RP. A mage who had his spellbook stolen would be panicked and angry, and do anything possible to get it back, the same as either of the other examples. Would it be possible to put something like this into the game?

[Kaeldorn]

Indeed, nothing can be done with the thieving skills because they're hardcoded into the NWN2 GUI.

As for the spells.. I guess it might be possible, but first off I'm not entirely sure how the checks for arc/div spell disabling when someone tries to cast works (looked for it a few minutes but didn't find anything), secondly it would take a tiny bit of extra server load fairly often and that adds up (whenever someone receives or loses an item). Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, how often does it really happen that someone loses his spellbook or holy symbol without DM interference? Or do you even want annoying little pickpockets to get the power to completely wreck someone's character who will then start bugging you DM's for help to play the police officer instead of doing things that are actually fun?

In other words.. isn't it far simpler to just toggle that arcane/divine spellcasting ability yourself as a DM when you want to use the feature? It saves us work, it saves you work, it saves the server work, you can still use it just the same in events you're rolling yourself to make an interesting adventure for the players and it avoids complaints/griefing.

I'm not saying the essence of the idea is bad, but in my mind automating it has too many undesirable side-effects to want to put time into it.

[Urithrand]

The whole purpose of this idea was just that - things like that shouldn't *need* DM intervention. If you are a mage, you know only the spells in your spellbook. I don't understand why that should be some etherial creation that no-one can steal from you.

As I mentioned, there's already a DM command to disable both types of spell, surely that would be no more or less a strain on the server than the possessiono f an item?

[c2k]

Open Lock and Disarm trap are hardcoded as said. You can force the use of lockpicks by making doors harder to unlock.

Spells can be messed with like that through the spellhook, though I don't think wizards need a spellbook to cast their spells, but rather to memorize them. There is no way I know of to prevent memorization, and thus I can't see how to implement a spell book the way its used in PnP.

I really don't think its necessary. Dms are capable of making wizards have "memory lapses" and putting clerics in the position in which they need to pray to their deity.

[Iso]

And then there's the possibilities the truly devious would dream for... acquiring another Wizards spell book, breaking the cipher, laughing their heads off maniacally.

That's just to laugh at, don't take it seriously.
I think Clerics are supposed to have Holy Symbols to Turn/Rebuke Undead, aren't they?

[CorneliusVonRichten]

Well, if you want a real spellbook then you should also implement the ability for a wizard to "enchant" it with protection spells. Like Alarm, Combustions etc. so that wizards immediately knows when the book is stolen. Or when someone opens the book without proper preparation he get's zapped/blasted etc.
Or he should be able to encrypt it in a special language etc.

[Lanemeyer]

Yeah, the idea is nice, though what Cornelius said also makes sense

[Zoberraz]

The whole purpose of this idea was just that - things like that shouldn't *need* DM intervention. If you are a mage, you know only the spells in your spellbook. I don't understand why that should be some etherial creation that no-one can steal from you.

As I mentioned, there's already a DM command to disable both types of spell, surely that would be no more or less a strain on the server than the possession of an item?

Well, a spellbook should essentially be for memorizing new spells. Given that... once a spell is memorized, a wizard should be able to keep them in memory for an extended length of time (barring extraordinary circumstances such as level drain) and cast them as he like.

With the above in consideration, just disabling spells wouldn't be adequate. The actual right implementation to a stolen spellbook would be the inability to change spells to be memorized and to acquire new spells upon a rest period.

I can't even begin to understand how that might be coded in... but point is, a mage without spellbook doesn't become helpless so much as he becomes unable to renew his magical resources.

* * *

My opinion? It might be too close to simulationism to actually turn out being a worthwhile addition to a NWN2 persistent world, and the addition would either be an equivalent (the spell failure mentioned) or require new coding... for a conditional benefit that may not apply unless is strenuous and unique circumstances (and face it, a class like the wizard being deprived of the majority of its class abilities is pretty touchy - rogues and clerics by contrast can easily replace the medium they need to do parts of thier jobs).

While we are at it, PnP spellbooks often end up being protected by spells to insure that anyone grabbing a wizard spellbook might not get away from it whole, or get away at all. If we start thinking up of ways to steal a wizard's spellbook... it'd only be fair to have those same wizards gain access to powers to protect those spellbooks, from arcane marks to magical alarms to magic mouths to sepia snake sigils to fire traps and so on.

It's laudable, but then, where does the simulationism stop? You could steal a wizard's spell components (it'd apply to most full fledged spellcaster classes to a degree), steal a fighter's water and rations... and so forth. Considering the amount of intrisinc 'fun' and 'entertainment' that might come with the idea being implemented... I'd recommend against it.

[Xeesheava]

Well, if you want a real spellbook then you should also implement the ability for a wizard to "enchant" it with protection spells. Like Alarm, Combustions etc. so that wizards immediately knows when the book is stolen. Or when someone opens the book without proper preparation he get's zapped/blasted etc.
Or he should be able to encrypt it in a special language etc.

The basic implementation on the system must be (NWN1 Based):

A. Creation of 'Generic Spellbook' item
B. Creation of 'Bind Spellbook' skill on the item Itself.
This will end in 'Character's Name Spellbook'

The advanced implementation can be:

A. Key for the spellbook, can be a dialogue box where the character can input a number code.

B. A Spell (not higher than Level 3) who triggers when the number code fails three times. This can be posible using the Magical Contention atribute on items. Not magical classes must succeed a Use Magical Device DC of 20 in case of using this, a failure in this DC will end in the triggering of the spell.

C. +5 Spot when the target it's the spellbook, resulting in the notification of 'Character it's trying to steal you!'

D. The Spellbook must have a drop rate of 50% on death and resurrection via Forest of Eternal Night NPC, and the spellbook must stay in the area where the owner died on [Random Position (x, y)].

[Kaeldorn]

With the DM command it sets an integer on the database that is checked on somewhere when someone casts a spell (I don't know where exactly). An item check is definitely more strain than that, though how much I'm not completely certain.

Using items, there would be two possibilities:
- a GetItemPossessedBy check in addition to the check already in place. That one goes through the player's inventory list until it finds an object with a matching tag (for the spellbook in this case). That's up to several hundreds of checks if someone has a full inventory with their book somewhere at the end... The checks are fast because they're hardcoded, but still I'm not too sure how efficient this is. Saulus has a tool to check such things
- Making use of the existing toggles by enabling/disabling through checks if an item received or lost matches the spellbook's tag. Low server load, but happens extremely frequently. Would also need something in place to overrule receiving the spellbook back when casting, to avoid abuse. Possibly another int.

Other things: Any spellbook would suffice for casting unless another variable is added on top of the item. Simple extra check there that doesn't require too much. Without that, someone could easily replace the item through exploiting.
Using Spell Hooks is not impossible, but it would require us to include every single spell of the original NWN2 spells into custom scripts. Not worth the effort.


I don't know if you remember Slanke's character Samantha, but something like this can be very well roleplayed without anything automated. Any random book could be used to symbolize it if the players involved would want one.

The only purpose this function you suggest serves is pickpocketing, which is not only completely random but it also isn't taking into account the many ways the possessor of such an object could protect himself from having it stolen.

Stealing important items from a character without the player's (or any DM's) consent in vanilla D&D is entirely different from having that happen in a persistent online world. Not everyone is going to care if it ruins the other player's fun, they don't really know him/her anyway. It might provide RP in some cases, but it's wide open to abuse and is very easily going to cause grief if it's implemented.

[Product of Void]

umm...maybe could use this

http://gulbsoft.de/doku.php/nwn/how_...ting_functions

would make it check for the item and quit if does not have it then fire it normal.

Though would be much easier (and less likely to crash the server) if they locks were just increased to a higher dc.

level 15 charactors
skill 18 add in dex bonus max 20 or 24 with potion (5~6)

add 20

20+18+5 = 43 so if the dc to a lock is set to say 44 or 50 it should force them to use lock picks.

no scripting much easier to do.

[Iso]

Although I believe it's best to abandon the idea of coded books and leave it to RP,

for the sake of knowledge would it be less strenuous to the server if the check was linked to a journal entry? On acquiring the item (book, holy symbol, whatever) they get a journal entry, on losing it they get an update or a change. On reacquiring or gaining a new version of the item the journal once again reflects this. Possible, yes/no?

[PatriotBob]

You really shouldn't share that kinda stuff Void... I can't play Sundren right now, and I really should be working on job hunting or my C++ projects... but no... you have to post this stuff here and now I have to open my editor and totaly abuse it to my hearts content...

I've been doing my best to refrain from writting some custom scripts and spells that are missing from Sundren that were in PnP. Figured I could save all Devs some work, but I really should look for work and I probably can't do any better than them.

But now that you say I can override Bioware's retarded core functionality I just have to check just how much I can change... thanks.... you're totally getting me into a hole I'll never get out of.

Oh, and to actually stay on topic.... You could speed things up and only do a spell book check on rest. Cause that's when you memorize spells so if you don't have a spellbook you don't memorize spells. Any other time it doesn't matter.

[Product of Void]

Perhaps a code that checks for known spells and strips then. Intelect devourer or some criter with it

I remeber that being a problem with removing all xp and giving it back could not level a mage if they had all the spells.

PB, you need a J in your name ...mmm sandwich. Anyway if you think that is bad wait a week or so and I will give you more brain numbing stuff :P

Muahahaha.

[Silas North]

From an rp standpoint, I love this idea, and I think it is already semi-enforced (at least the spellbook part). Clerics requiring holy symbols seems interesting too. Is that rp rule already enforced?

A part of me feels it is a little unfair that wizards and clerics have a means to shut them down where sorcerers and favored souls do not, but then again, sorcs and favored souls have weaknesses as well. In dead magic zones or in the case where spells have been used up, a wizard or cleric may be fatigued, but that's it. Those whose magic is drawn upon more naturally (sorcerers, favored souls, bards, spirit shamans, and warlocks) may just freaking collapse when their magic is gone and in dead magic zones, they feel exhausted, empty, and in many cases terrified and unable to function. (Alyrian played this really well in Shar's Abaddon)

The rogue one sounds a little hard to pull off, but still interesting.