Crafting Hours

[Thief Of Navarre]

Ive noticed a few crafters (ones who clearly dont need the money or the gems) are somewhat reluctant to craft things for anyone else in fear that they might change the universal balance (and rightly so!) with this being a low magic server.
Might it be possible to look at introducing a set amount of crafting hours like you do the level and experience system to limit the amount of high enchanting going on in the server. Im not saying this to inhibit crafting or because I dont trust people to limit their crafting in any way but rather to give people the freedom to craft items without the guilt that they are changing the magic level of the server!

The Known Lands Persistant world has such a crafting hours system, just thinking it might be worth a look; http://www.knownlands.com/

Thanks,
~ Thiefy

[Saulus]

We already tightly control a lot of crafting through loot balance, as we see problems with distribution we alter the balance. This is part of our beta process.

To me limiting crafting seems like a punishment more than anything. A dwarf can't smith a piece of armor because it's tea-time? Nah...

[Thief Of Navarre]

No, but even the most dedicated smiths only work a forty hour week otherwise they get put into a higher income tax band! (Im being fascious, dont smite me!)

Only a surgestion that was all, thanks for the reply

[Kaeldorn]

Actually, I believe you misunderstood the meaning of this suggestion Saulus. The idea behind the suggested system is to make crafting take actual time, so to speak. Each character basically gets a certain amount of points with which to craft based on his skill level, making it so that the amount of crafting that can be done during a week is limited, and not the times of the day at which a character can craft. With +3 enchantments taking a level 15 caster the full amount of points for a whole week, so that they can't do anything else in terms of enchanting during that time.

This symbolizes crafters making effort to get their work done, and having to make choices how they spend their tim (crafting points). What is happening now to 'balance' things is wrong... Enchanters are asked to demand a minimum amount of gold from their customers that far exceeds any of the costs involved in actually making the items. Usually twofold or more. This without any setbacks for themselves, which leads to them getting far more rich than any other character can possibly become (and thus, also end up getting all the best enchants for themselves while others can't, which leads to a raw power balance too).

[Saulus]

Ah, that seems like a very sound explaination of the idea Kaeldorn, and an interesting idea in its own respect. I wouldn't be opposed to it if I wasn't the one that had to code it. But we'll see.

[Elusa]

The problem as I see it is that you have a select few characters capable of crafting the enchantments that use rare gems. It's the monopoly effect; they can charge as much as they want as long as people can afford it. There's no competition. And they buy up all of the gems to begin with and refuse to sell them, so new enchanters don't have any gems. Even if the new enchanter offers to buy gems, the monopoly can afford to pay more, and then will charge more to cover the increased cost. In the PnP FR, any such monopoly is quickly dissolved as an equally skilled enchanter will move in to compete, and gems can be bought from outside Sundren.

Adding enchanting time won't solve the problem. Sure, it's more realistic. But enchanters will still make heaps of stags, only it will take them longer. Meanwhile they can grind for cash like everyone else, or even charge extra for their 'increased' effort. Even adding additional exp and material costs wouldn't help, because Sundren isn't PnP. It's a closed system, no new master enchanters move to Sundren, no shipments of gems available on the open market.

One option is to make those enchanted items available via NPCs for significantly higher prices than crafting. But the problem here is it moves Sundren into the middle-magic realm, where enchantments can be simply bought.

I think this problem needs to be solved by players. If an enchanter quotes a price of 10,000 when the gem and essences are worth maybe 4,000, characters shouldn't be buying them, even with the maximum overestimate of the material costs. Anything over twice the cost of materials is outright ridiculous. Right now there isn't an option, but maybe if some new enchanters offered up their services, and the old ones would stop demanding unrealistic prices...

[Peridan]

God, I love economics at its best.

Does that make me a nerd?

[Kaeldorn]

While the points you make hold merit, Elusa, your fears don't seem to match with what really has been happening.

Pyras and Harg were competing with prices... until they were asked to raise them by the DMs(?), based on the argument that enchantments of high quality are supposed to be rare in a low magic setting.

Etria was giving out enchantments almost for free since she came back... until she was asked to demand a significant sum of money for her services.


They are players who know that the rest of us are players too, and they don't really want to be in a monopoly position as you described just to make an excessive amount of virtual currency to be far above everyone else in terms of economical power (even though some of their characters might try ICly, if there were no competition).

Although I do agree with you that them buying almost all gems can get problematic. Those are a very finite resource, especially in times when there isn't a steady influx of new players. Nobody ever does the Ice Giants quest, simply because the risk (losing weeks to months of investment in your character) isn't worth the reward (one gem, which isn't even guaranteed to be good, for a whole group out of which two people or more are likely going to get killed). Ironically enough, once they are well equipped enough, a group of high level enchanters might give it a go and get even more of the pricy jewels for themselves to sell at high prices

[Thief Of Navarre]

Thank you Kaeldorn for perfectly Illustrating my point where I could not, Im not particularly good at getting my ideas across

[DurinRustbeard]

Yes It is not at least my intention, and I don't believe Pyras's either (tho it might be his characters) to be charging "High" prices for these things and pocketing the profit. But you all have to realize that to maintain Sundren as a Low magic server the DM's have guided the enchanters to charge prices somewhat relative to the current merchant prices as Kael stated.

I might add that Powerful Wizzards are suppose to be ridiculously rich aren't they? Most FR books I've read have them holding all sorts of as Kael stated "The best for themselves" Unfortunately Pentec is a Evoker so a TON of enchanments are unavailable to him =/. So instead he has a dwarf army to compensate lol.

Really tho guys I'm sorry about the prices and I like Kaels Idea really, but at the same time they have us charging 25k+ because they don't want every person with 10k to be wielding a fire weapon, etc. Maybe the answer is to have the players mandate that gems be sold for 20k+ if that is your guys issue, but really the price of 25k+ is pretty realistic to Sundren and I think even with a points system that wont change much as far as the devs desire to remain low magic. If you wanna implement a system that charges the enchanters like how scribing a scroll does then that takes gold out of our pockets that you guys seem concerned about.

Myself, I'm happy to pay 25-30k to a character that I like because its realistic. It makes me have to scrimp and save up to that monstrous amount so I can be the cool guy with the flaming greatsword like I read about, etc. Most of my characters won't buy from Pyras because he's a red, while some have no issue with that. Some might like harg because he's friendlier. I myself tend to keep from purchasing gems anymore, and if someone wants an enchant, I buy their gem from them and charge the 25k or etc for it. As far as abusing my gold, I don't think I'm guilty of that yet =/. Take care all,

Vote Pentec!

[Saulus]

In the end it won't be falling upon the players to balance the economy, the world will control that. Kaeldorn has been putting great effort into things related to crafting and I'm sure he will also be a big part of achieving a balance between our low magic and crafting.

[Demathos]

Yeah, props to Kaeldorn for not backing out like me and his other partner did, in helping with the crafting system. And, uh, sorry about that, by the way.

But yeah, Kaeldorn got it right. Harg and I were in serious competition once, and we'd sometimes lower our prices to the point of actually losing money just so we could steal business from each other. Those were the good old days when I wanted to off him with an old fashioned Finger of Death. There did in fact come a time, though, where multiple staff members thought it was ridiculous that people could literally be handing out +3 swords with vampiric regeneration and +1d6 elemental damage, made of Cold Iron. My first response was that, if I'm capable of making it, I should be able to do whatever I want with it. However, you have to realize, that DM's don't even hand out items that good in specialized quests.

My old character, Karthus, had Silver Dragon Full Plate, which Leaving Hope said was the absolute best item that was existing in a player's inventory at the time. It was +3, but only against a certain alignment. To everyone else, it was either +2 or +1, and it had some other nifty things. But really, what Pyras and Harg can now make is better than that. High level mages can make +3 items that are usable against any alignment, race, or class, without restriction, and we can mass-produce them. To be able to do that really does undermine the entire setting.

A +3 item is a Red Item, as per the colour-coding system of item power, and there are only two of them that exist outside of faction stores, as I recall -- and they cost over 200,000. That said, does it really make sense for a PC to be able to hand it out, free? Realistically, if a merchant did that and IC'ly tried to undermine the economy, he could expect to piss of the entire Exigo, Enclave, and any other group of traders out there. And, yeah, some of them would probably sooner whack you than negotiate.

This is just what I've been told by staff. I actually do feel like a douche when people say "50K? Fuck you", and walk away. It's not like that's even really good for my business, either.

[DurinRustbeard]

Yea, People just think what 30k?, 50k? OMG that will take me DAYS of exping/farming. You guys are cheating us!

As Pyras said, its More than fair considering what prices merchants offer. AND Most of the "Nice merchant items" Have some big drawbacks And if they don't they're typically max enchanted with weaker enchants than pyras or I can offer so they're permanently limited vs a creation we can make with +3 and 2 other enchants. So.. this being said I really only see the issue at hand being that we enchanters get to pocket the extra profit as opposed to an NPC doing the same?

As I said before I don't believe I've abused my excessive gold, but also as I stated prior, arent wizzys suppose to be stupid rich? Lol

[Ebannon]

There are people who get 50k in a matter of days? Jesus, it would take me months to do that barring some epic DM quest awards or some such.

[DurinRustbeard]

Well days is abit extreme , but just as with levels it takes time to uncap and to allow your pc to achieve more, so even if it did take weeks or months its more realistic I suppose. As demathos said, DM's don't reward that kinda stuff even to the really high lvl nice roleplayers so its not meant to be easily achievable .