A Little Melee Heavy

[Gevaudan]

I say this from an entirely helpful perspective, not complaining at all.

That said I think I'm uniquely qualified to say this because I have tried every possible type of character in my various character builds, partly because I was trying to see which characters I liked and wanted to keep and partly because in case I do review this PW for NWVault once it goes out of beta I'm gathering unofficially notes on all the class combination i can think of.

Anywho, onto the suggestion. I feel the combat encounters on this server (at least for levels 3-7ish) are a little melee heavy. For example, characters I have played who pretty much can't melee at all or have low AC such as ... wizards, rogues, bards, rangers ... tend to get killed fairly easily by enemies in the Sharan Hills and Veritas Forest. In the same areas characters like Monks, Fighters, Paladins, and Druids (because of the spell selection a druid gets ... allows for high AC and High DMG) have no problem in these areas. This is also probably why so many Druids exist here it is the only non-beat-em-up class that won't get you easily killed. Just cause I didn't mention them ... clerics are a toss up, the right deity gives the right combo of bonus spells/domain powers and can make it easy to survive ... the wrong one can get you killed.

I'm not an expert on how you would possibly fix this but maybe give some of those creatures a very low spot/listen skill so rogues can sneak around easier ... maybe give them a few weaknesses to magic types like acid or fire so mages can kill them off before they run out of spells . I think maybe even a lower AC would help out since if your not a melee race you need a +5-+7 in your attack to hit the thing without criting.

As I said I'm not an expert on how to fix this but I am required to know about it and what might "help it" as part of my reviewer job description. to reiterate my disclaimer this was meant as informative information only. If sundren personally dislikes non-melee classes and wants to keep them in check by making areas harder for them ... well then mission successful heh

[Kaeldorn]

I find it's actually rather fair that magic isn't so strong here as it is on other servers or the OC. Sundren is a 'low magic' setting, which is also visible from the limited strength of magical items, and the incredible difficulty to gather components needed for the more powerful items to craft. In low magic settings, fighter types should be the bread and butter of the population, with rogues as a close second. I find that the population is spread rather well, besides the abundance of druids you mentioned.

All this isn't to say that I want spellcasting types to be useless. On the contrary, they should offer high valued support to the group. While the number of buffs is limited at lower levels, the higher level areas you really don't even dare to enter without a wizard or cleric to boost your group's defences, because the risk of death and the price for it are so incredibly high. Those classes may not be very self-reliant (bar clerics, which are just plain and simple overpowered at higher levels), but they definitely have their place.

I have one 'balance gripe', however: AC (and enemy AB). At some point the difference in player AC becomes so great that some are hit just 'sometimes', and others almost always take painful blows when struck. Some things are clearly tailored towards those higher levels of AC, which just isn't attainable without every possible AC buff in the game, unless you roll very specific 'power build' class and feat combinations (must have tumble, must have dodge, must have combat expertise, preferrably use a tower shield, etc.). You might say one who has trouble when being hit should avoid being hit at all, but that is difficult when it involves enemy archers, and almost impossible if you are a rogue or ranger or some other type of 'weak' melee combatant. Sure, it shouldn't be risk free to play one of those, but it can get frustrating when you almost have to start running as soon as anything targets you, or otherwise just count on being raised by a DM if it's an event.

Something similar could be said about enemy AC and player AB, like you posted, but on the higher levels that's less of a problem except against some DM spawned creatures.

[Phantom Lamb]

To me, this is sort of an existing problem that stretches back to NWN1 and 3.5 in general.

When you talk about repetitive killing (not grinding, I mean regular encounters, which are 99% of the encounters you face), beefy melee have always had an advantage in the computer game. Skill-based or dex-based classes can shine more during events with DMs, but not regular encounters. Glass cannons can shine during those key, pivotal boss fights, but on regular battles they wind up twaning their worthless crossbow for lack of better things to do.

4th Edition actually fixed this to a large extent, but that has nothing to do with Sundren.

I have seen this issue on almost every server I've played on over the years in both NWN1 and 2. I don't think it's something that needs addressing for the lower levels. Remember, by the way 3.5 is designed, the relative level : power ration for glass cannons ramps up over time. Low levels SHOULD be difficult for them, but high levels they should surpass their melee counterparts.

[nickbeat]

Granted the non-melee types don't have the staying power to hold out in hand-to-hand, but they still have their place. Consider an enemy with a very high AC like say the muckspear goblin cheif, the fighters can't touch them and they are getting beaten. The wizard spams magic missiles at him and drops him while they keep him pinned on the bridge.

The wizard isn't gonna bust out by himself, nor the rogue. Even the fighter has some trouble without buffs. I would say that the cleric or druid is the best one-man show for sure.

Oh, and I disagree about clerics being so great at higher levels. They kick butt from day one!

[Gevaudan]

Let me be clear I'm not talking about making non-melee more powerful, I agree at low-level with little spell/power selection it will be tough for them it's kind of the point.

What I am talking about is small typically "weak" creatures like goblins having high AC and high reflex abilities so that 90% of spells used get cut down to half damage or avoided all together. Melee touch spell like acid arrow? just forget about it your not gonna hit anything.

This post isn't about "buffing" players it is about slightly lowering the buffs on creatures. whne you whip a fireball at 3 goblins and 1 dies, 1 takes 4 dmg and the other reflexes and takes nothing it's a little rough.

This server is a very low-magic low-level server and that is what alot of people like about it. This however runs into problems when you realize that low-level also means low-spell selection / use for spellcasters. so the memorization and use of a fireball for a character running around the hills is few and far between. They are lucky to get two in a whole day to memorize and use. so when they use one against the goblins they really should die . I mean if all 3 in one group died from a fireball they can only do that twice before having to resort to lower level spells for the rest of the groups. I could see a goblin defender surviving and running at the wizard with low hitpoints but when the archer is on "barely injured" after a fireball it seems a little off

Like I said above if this was the plan all along then I have no complaints just to say "mission successful". If the plan was to try and balance things to as close to equal as possible and make the encounters get harder as you progress requiring spellcasters to concentrate on buffing in the higher-level areas ... then currently melee characters seem to be better off.

Usually, even in the OC really, at low level areas all classes can handle themselves but as you encounter tougher creatures you need to put the casters on "Defense buffing" and the melee on attack because even the best attack spells aren't as good as a fully buffed fighter running head on.

[sharringtonm]

I think this post needs to go away. We tried putting in creatures that fuck up melee fighters and mages rules against, and soo many people bitched, threatened to leave, and cursed at me personally, that I'm still surprised I didn't just go on a ban rampage when I was in a position to do it.

Your fellow players have made the choice that they want a melee heavy world, they made it very clear with the level of dissent they caused in game and on the forum. If you want to change the world, you need to make your first steps with them.

I can't imagine the staff wants to deal with this issue again.

[Gevaudan]

Again no one is talking about putting in new creatures or in some way "fucking up" melee characters. That is akin to "nerfing" players ... I never mentioned nerfing or buffing players. Leave the players the same i'm simply saying that right now melee character are tougher.

If you needed a math number fighter's danger level is at 20% and casters are at 80%. I'm only suggesting bringing the casters down a bit maybe to 40% or 50%. They should have more danger than melee but currently the difference is astronomical.

Also, it seems my disclaimer didn't work so I'll repeat it a third time. I am not complaining or saying this is bad or that is bad; I'm simply reporting on a observation I had from the unique perspective of someone who has tried every type of character possible over the past month and a half. If the staff feels this is the way they want things then all the power to them. This post was meant for the sole purpose of making the staff aware of something they may not be aware of since i'm sure alot of them haven't had the time (what with busy staff schedules) to playtest each and every class and class combination possible as I have.

Take that for what it is ... simple "information".

EDIT -

soo many people bitched, threatened to leave, and cursed at me personally, that I'm still surprised I didn't just go on a ban rampage when I was in a position to do it.

Speaking as an outsider again but from my experience as an Administrator/creator of 2 servers. If these players would rather curse and threaten to leave because they can't be uber instead of offering helpful and constructive ideas to a server still in beta then maybe you should have let them (or force them) to leave instead of catering to them. I tried that in the past and my server went completely downhill until it was a near unplayable pile of "you-know-what" because I mistakenly bowed to every player who threatened to "leave" or "give me a bad vote on NWVault" or what-have-you. I learned real fast you have to stick by what's best for your server and the players who care about your efforts will find you.

Instead I ended up with a horribly unbalanced mod-world that was never used by anyone but 400 elven lesbians all cybering in private areas with graphic text that would scare off Howard Stern ... so yah ... it wasn't the best plan I could have taken. I offer that disturbing information only in the hopes others can learn from my horrible mistake

[sharringtonm]

Goblins?

Archers are level 3 rogues. Have 16 HP and an AC of 15 (dex +3, Natural AC +2, no armor). That's what a level 3 rogue PC's stats would look like as well. The reflex save for them is 6.

whne you whip a fireball at 3 goblins and 1 dies, 1 takes 4 dmg and the other reflexes and takes nothing it's a little rough.

I'm still trying to figure out a fireball can only do 4 damage to a goblin. I know for a fact they don't have any fire immunities. Hmm..
You have to be a 5th level wizard/6 sorc to cast fireball, which means it does 5d6 damage so I suppose if all 5 of the dice rolls were 1' and 2's and they made the reflex save it might do only 4 damage. Thats a lot of ifs though and I can't see that being very common.

As for the one who takes none? Impossible. I'd say you missed with the blast is the only possibility. The goblins don't have evasion.

Regardless. Its a level 3 creature. why shouldn't it have the above stats?
They allready nerfed this creature by taking its evasion and sneak attacks away from it.
I'm sorry you miss with touch attacks, but thats the curse of a low BAB. You miss alot. Even on touch attacks.



I understand your low level rogue/wizard is squishy, but ever since Gygax released the Basic set Red Box, they've been squishy at low levels. Its not a Sundren thing. Its a D&D thing. Later on they blink and kill things. It's one hell of a trade off.

I think the unwritten rule for D&D for squishy characters has always been this: "party up"



If anyone fires back a "in my timezone not a lot of people are on to do this", ask yourself what such a statement really says?
It says you're on the wrong server.
If your looking for a server with more people so your squishy can advance easier, you need to look around. No server can be everything for everyone.

[nickbeat]

So far everyone is being cool here but I'm getting a little nervous about this subject. We are talking in very general terms here.

I'm personally going to hold off on posting anything further til Saulus chimes in.

[Gevaudan]

*shrugs to Sean* As I said I'm not an expert on the coded statistical stuff. i'm only an expert on how things play out in the end. As you said that is a hell of alot of coincidences but I can guarantee a goblin defender has never died to a fireball not once, taken damage sure but never died so that means it has higher than 30 hp? if my math is correct. A goblin with over 30hp seems a little much to me, yes he's a fighter and yes he is level 3 but just like a minotaur gets bonus HP for being a big creature should not then the goblin have Minus HP for being such a scrawny little bugger?

I also 100% agree that spellcasters are gods at higher levels, but the way sundren is setup (a way I like for the record) people rarely ever get higher than level 15 if even that far. So the promised "future power" never gets realized.

After Sean's latest post the stats appear to be standard, which is good, but I think we can all agree Sundren is anything but "standard" and thats why we like it. So in light of sundrens unique greatness perhaps some unique stats for some creatures in some areas could help balance things for such a low-level band of players.

Food for thought anywho as nickbeat said Saulus will chime in eventually and he'll probably say this is how he intended it to be in which case I will give him a big *salute* and a and move on heh.

[Dark presence]

I believe the real problem isn't the stats of the creatures but the sheer numbers of them. A caster will not be able to use spells on every encounter, even at high levels. And because of the melee focus, I spend my spell slots primarily on buffs, especially AC buffs, and then healing spells. That leaves extremely little to actually cast offensively. That everything gets maximum HP is another strike against casters as well, not necessarily a fault with Sundren though. But I haven't found it viable to bother with offensive spells much, because I can't use them every encounter, like I can with buff spells.

I'll also point out that designing creatures with the same stats as PCs is really a problem if PCs are supposed to fight them again and again and again. If a party of PCs fight themselves, they should have a 50/50 chance to win, right? So throwing this at them every encounter is a problem in that regard. This particular design philosophy is certainly why a lot of old players disappeared when the new death system was put in, because the various adventuring places were already extremely difficult for a party of the appropriate level.

Another problem with this philosophy is that players can't force the AI to target the 'tanks' instead of mauling the weaker mages and such. Thats why I cringe, personally, every time I hear the advice of 'bring a party', because there is still no way to stop big bad monster from chasing weak little PC until they are dead, while big tough PC is forced to just watch, chase, and swing away hoping they kill big bad monster first.


So I personally would much rather see fewer weaker creatures, especially at high levels, or at least drastically reduced numbers.

[Phantom Lamb]

You can't force it, but there are many ways to greatly increase the chances the goblins rush the fighter, not the mage. For starters, don't lead off with magic missile!

But seriously, if we reduced the number of spawns so that mages could have offensive spells to fire at each and every one, it would make them overpowered.

I think this is reaching dead horse potential folks.

[Anks]

I believe the real problem isn't the stats of the creatures but the sheer numbers of them. A caster will not be able to use spells on every encounter, even at high levels. And because of the melee focus, I spend my spell slots primarily on buffs, especially AC buffs, and then healing spells. That leaves extremely little to actually cast offensively. That everything gets maximum HP is another strike against casters as well, not necessarily a fault with Sundren though. But I haven't found it viable to bother with offensive spells much, because I can't use them every encounter, like I can with buff spells.

I'll also point out that designing creatures with the same stats as PCs is really a problem if PCs are supposed to fight them again and again and again. If a party of PCs fight themselves, they should have a 50/50 chance to win, right? So throwing this at them every encounter is a problem in that regard. This particular design philosophy is certainly why a lot of old players disappeared when the new death system was put in, because the various adventuring places were already extremely difficult for a party of the appropriate level.

Another problem with this philosophy is that players can't force the AI to target the 'tanks' instead of mauling the weaker mages and such. Thats why I cringe, personally, every time I hear the advice of 'bring a party', because there is still no way to stop big bad monster from chasing weak little PC until they are dead, while big tough PC is forced to just watch, chase, and swing away hoping they kill big bad monster first.


So I personally would much rather see fewer weaker creatures, especially at high levels, or at least drastically reduced numbers.

This sums it up rather well,

What I do agree that it has to do with the numbers of critters running about that makes most casters a bit worthless until the so callled "Bosses." or in Dm events, I think one of the main reasons why Melees are able to rip appart these creatures is because at lower - mid levels they can take abuse of the fact they have a lot of hps and healing kits heal you for 20-30 with you haveing no skill in healing. So they are able to continue fighting without risk of death, unlike the rest of the wimpys they cant really survive without a "Tank" But I dont mind this I think its what forces people to group toghether and start little fun adventures.

[Allielliot]

Okay so let me start by sayng that my only char on Sundren is a lvl 8 fighter... so i might be a little biased. anyways. on to my point. This is supposed to be a RP server where spending time around the Exigo post's fire is just as important as running through some hills commiting mass genocide on gobbies for xp. that is why you get 30xp every 10 minutes for just standing around, until the higher lvls when squishy people would be useful. So the fact that the mosters is difficult seems good for the direction of Sundren because it is more incentive to party up and RP. We also get the 30% xp bonus which seems further evidence that the dms and devs don't intend for us to solo. As for mages not being able to go and solo at lower lvls, it would seem a little crazy to me if they could. i just keep imagining this guy whos had some basic magic training, but is really just learning how to use his spells in combat, and now he's going up against some goblins all alone...he's gonna die....unless he's very lucky. Now you take a fighter who's trained a bit at fighting other fighters...fighting a goblin won't be much different. Also my fighter had a rough time with the goblins and what not when i soloed. when i started at lvl 3 he had a rough time with 1 goblin at a time just like every one else. Anyways i feel like I'm rambling , and my main point was that i think that things were meant to be as hard as they are by the Devs and that mages going out to slay things at lower lvls is not too rp realistic. Hope that i didn't offend anyone. Everyone have a good day. 8-D, and i enjoy meeting you IG for some RP

[sharringtonm]

Oh well, it really has hit a dead horse issue. Everyone has chimed in. I recommend this thread for closing.

Oh, a spittlefist defender has exactly 24 HPs.