Displaying Disguise Rolls

[Phantom Lamb]

With the new skills in place, is it possible to display a DC number above someone's head when you use the built-in "disguised" UI button?

It would be great to have that button perform an automatic skill check and display the DC above people's heads along with that mask icon. I know it isn't perfect--there are masks that might give bonuses to DC, people might know your voice, etc., but it would go a long way toward cutting down on the OOC chatter to try and figure out a disguise.

The only downside would be someone who keeps rolling and rolling using the button until they get the number they want. Assuming they put enough time into the disguise, this might be a Take 20 situation anyway, making it moot.

*EDITED UPDATE--THX INFO SBOMB!!1*
Per DnD rules, Disguise checks are not made until you encounter someone to roll against. They are always against an opposition, and thus a Take 20 does not apply. You reuse the same roll against every other person you encounter, so displaying it over your head would still be helpful.

You may only check against someone's disguise if they are:
A) directly interacting with you (walking around near you does not count, they must be engaged with you somehow), and;
B) you are moderately familiar with the person (meeting once in passing does not count)

[Lollercide]

I'd suggest that, should PL's suggestion be considered, that it would not be considered a Take 20 situation. Namely because that would make disguise a VERY VERY hard skill to see through.

When you throw in some items that increase the DC, then you have level 5-6 players able to completely hide from higher level players, even those that maxed out their 'sense motive' skill, making it hard to impossible for them to counter the skill.

When push comes to shove though, I'm not really concerned about that. Just my thoughts and suggestion to add onto PL's. If anything, it would help kill OOC chatter as well as motivating players to sling their skill points around.

I'm all for that.

[Gevaudan]

whether PL's idea is put into place or not that fact is disguise ... if done privately and given time to prepare ... should ALWAYS be a Take 20. Sorry to disagree Loll but ... *shrugs*

Does it make it hard to see through the disguise? yep sure does but thats what happens when they have the time to properly disguise themselves. If enough time is spent on the disguise it will indeed make it very hard to see through.

[Jai_V]

The same is true for any skills that you can take time with.

Obviously, there's very few situations in which you could "take 20" with skills that require a sense of immediacy, such as the social skills (i.e. Bluff, Diplomacy) because you can never completely anticipate how someone will react to that well-rehearsed lie or that perfectly crafted speech. But if you have time to calm down, take it slow, and check and double check everything (minor surgery with Heal, crafting a false decree with Forgery, tying the perfect knot with Use Rope), somebody's not going to be able to easily surmount it when pressed for time (meaning when a check is require).

Of course, if it's someone disguised to fool the law, the officer-in-charge could always order that person detained for closer inspection (taking 20 on a Search or Spot check).

Basically, if you the time, take 20 or take 10. If you don't? Make a check and pray.

(Of course, all of these are just suggestions...)

[sharringtonm]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

Checks Without Rolls

A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions and eliminate the luck factor.
Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
Taking 20

When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks

The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.

[Kaeldorn]

Quote from the PHB:

"Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes
for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round
action, or one standard action), and when the skill being attempted
carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words,
eventually you will get a 20 if you roll long enough. Instead of
rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had
rolled a 20. Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right.
Taking 20 takes about twenty times as long as making a single check
would take."

There is always a penalty for failure at Disguise, so Lollercide is right. No matter how much time you devote to disguising yourself, you can't know exactly what an opposed spotter (it's spot, not sense motive) will recognize you by.

As for the suggestion... the actual rule for disguise is that the player who disguises himself doesn't even know how well he does it. The DM normally rolls the die in secret. If the result doesn't have to be kept secret for Sundren, then I agree with the original suggestion and the no-take-20 as per Lollercide's suggestion.

Otherwise, it would be nice if the 'disguiser' can make a roll which sets a variable on himself that noone can see. Then, when and a spot made against disguise is targeted on the disguised player, the spotter only gets back a result if he failed or succeeded (no actual values shown).
This mechanic would require a reinstallment of the targeted skill checks, which I'm actually for because it allows target-specific modifiers to be coded. For instance: Handle Animal can take into account if the target is a wild beast or tame animal; sense motive, bluff, spot and listen bonuses against favored enemies, that sort of thing.

[Gevaudan]

you can take 20 on open locks but there is penalty for failure for that too ... broken pick, broken lock, alert people on the other side of the door etc etc etc ...

You can argue there is a penalty for failure to almost everything it's just semantics. If someone has basically an unlimited amount of time to perfect a disguise they can easily justify a Take 20.

[Kaeldorn]

With that logic... the spot check should also be a take 20 if someone has ample time to look at the disguised person, so your point is moot...

Breaking picks and locks only happens with a 'skill fumble' if applied (and it's normal for a lockpick set to have more picks in it), and people being alerted while you're busy hasn't anything to do with failing your open lock skill, but rather with a change of circumstances in the amount of time that passes. If you're going to bring those sorts of things up, I can also say your disguise automatically fails when it's raining because all your make-up gets washed away, or when the wind blows off your hood, or silly things like that. You shouldn't assume any of those things will happen.

What makes disguise different, as I said before, is that as per the official rules you shouldn't know yourself how well it's done. Rushed disguises, or disguises on the fly even get a penalty. The normal disguise skill check already assumes you have ample time to apply it.

Another quote from PHB:
"The effort requires at least a few props, some makeup, and 1d3 x 10 minutes of work."
10 to 30 minutes isn't a rush job.

The only reason I can see why disguise could be take 20 on Sundren is wholly different, namely because higher level characters won't get a chance to sufficiently boost their skill enough due to it being implemented late and no relevelling options being given, while spot has been in from the get go.

[Gevaudan]

No I believe someone said it in this thread you could take 20 on a spot check. they justified it rather well too. If said disguised person was detained by the law and the law was able to spend as long as needed with them then they could take 20 on their spot check too. Course in that situation it would just be easier to remove the disguise but you get the idea.

The reason for them saying "carries no penalties for failure" is to say that if failure at something were to damage you or in the case of a mage maybe let a summoned demon run wild or something like that you can't take 20 on it you have to show your skill.

What is the penalty for a failed Disguise might I ask? ... A less than perfect disguise is not a "penalty" or "failure" it's simply a less than perfect result. If someone was making a disguise and "Failed" during a time where they ahd unlimited time they could curse themselves for being stupid and start over again. A Disguise is like getting dressed ... if you do it wrong you can just start from scratch ... thats why Take 20 should be allowed for it.

The disclaimer on this is if the person is trying to disguise quickly, like while hiding in a bush near people they can't take 20 because they are not safe. I'd wager they can only "Take 20" in a secure area like a room they rented in an inn or something. If PH's idea was taken into effect then maybe it would be good to script in Take 20 only in rented inn rooms.

The bottom line here is the rules of D&D are like the bible, you can read the words and interpret them 100 ways. Some people will look at "Carries no penalty for failure" and assume it means penalty as immediate negative result and others will look at the same thing and think "consequence" even if that consequence happens hours later. It's all relative so there is really no point in argueing about it. Just wait for a staff member to decide they way they want it to be and abide by what they say *shrugs* they are the law around here.

EDIT - Editting is chinky heh so I'll edit to respond to your edit

Another quote from PHB:
"The effort requires at least a few props, some makeup, and 1d3 x 10 minutes of work."
10 to 30 minutes isn't a rush job.

I mentioned above that rushed jobs could definitely not take 20 ... but the book says a disguise takes 10-30 mins so what if someone has unlimited time in private to perfect it? They shouldn't be allowed a bonus like Take 20?

[nickbeat]

The SRD tells you what skills allow you to take 20 and which do not. I always find it easier to just follow the rules and avoid logical discussions about them.

Granted, in this case we are applying PnP rules to a a real time video game situation, so many of the rules don't translate so well. We mayhave to iron a lot of this stuff out.

[Gevaudan]

Granted, in this case we are applying PnP rules to a a real time video game situation, so many of the rules don't translate so well. We mayhave to iron a lot of this stuff out.

thats exactly what I was saying above it's best to let the staff decide and wait for their decision.

[Kaeldorn]

I'll repeat because I assume my editing to my post was done during yout writing:


What makes disguise different, as I said before, is that as per the official rules you shouldn't know yourself how well it's done. Rushed disguises, or disguises on the fly even get a penalty. The normal disguise skill check already assumes you have ample time to apply it.

Another quote from PHB:
"The effort requires at least a few props, some makeup, and 1d3 x 10 minutes of work."
10 to 30 minutes isn't a rush job.

After hours of effort you still won't know how well your disguise is going to work when put in practice.

[Gevaudan]

After hours of effort you still won't know how well your disguise is going to work when put in practice.

It's called a mirror ...

"Oh crap I can still see that part of my face ... hmm let me fix that .. there thats better now lets tes my voice ... la la *cough* okay no that work work" etc etc etc.

Ask Jim Carrey you can practice looking and sounding like other people privately he did it for years in the mirrior alone.

Anyways I'm done being devils advocate. I don't play a disguising character so I really could care less I just like arguing it's my fun heh

[DurinRustbeard]

Well this is kind of a question on when people can recognize other pcs some Characters wear wear face obstructing hoods, but they will retain the same armor, and cape, boots, etc.. but they have the disguise skill on. Does the armor, face visibility, cloak, etc count in to being unrecognizable at all?

Essentially the super man question.. can I change all my outside appearances, and put something to obstruct my face to be considered unrecognizable? or would I still have to have my disguise button up? I ask because I know we all have floating names over our head, but if I'm just some unknown vigilanty that is wearing totally different things than my character typically does, can he be recognized if he doesn't speak or reveal his face?

[Kaeldorn]

It's still a disguise, so disguise rules apply. That is, if the perceiver pays any attention to the disguised at all, just a glance won't reveal much if someone has the most of his face or any other easily identiable features covered. It could be played out by a delayed spot check, waiting until the disguised character has been in sight for quite a while.