Challenge Rating

[nutranurse]

Is it at all possible to remove the Challenge Rating on players/monsters in general? I mean the ability to see it does subtract from immersion during both social RP and combat RP. Challenge ratings also tend to to lead to a metagaming in that PCs will disregard a certain PC because they are far lower levelled than they, or people will only RP with the higher levelled PC because they have the 'power' on the server. Now I am not saying that everyone does this, and I am just asking for the removal to help with immersion.
You really should not be able to look at someone and exclaim "They are level XX, they must be powerful!" That should come with how well they RP and how they RP.

[Scourn]

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...+rating&page=2

[aleksei_aiden]

Back on NWN1, there was a script that could be implemented to remove challenge ratings and the Examine features (showing if a person has immunities,etc.) On servers which did this, this allowed role play to flow better and keep people from metagaming so much by levels.

I know for a fact, Levels do not = RP. It just means your character has levels and can cast/bash better than most. This also encourages parties for protection and though there will still be some who solo...most will party first to see if they could solo or not.

[Kaldaris]

Back on NWN1, there was a script that could be implemented to remove challenge ratings and the Examine features (showing if a person has immunities,etc.) On servers which did this, this allowed role play to flow better and keep people from metagaming so much by levels.

I know for a fact, Levels do not = RP. It just means your character has levels and can cast/bash better than most. This also encourages parties for protection and though there will still be some who solo...most will party first to see if they could solo or not.

Also, we can't remove CR from people without removing CR from creatures, without making a custom UI for it.

It's in my opinion and consideration that challenge rating -is- needed for monsters, at least for newer players as well as older players as something of an initial gauge. Later on experimentation becomes key, but earlier . . . Experimenting can pretty much leave you wearing your buttcheeks on your head at the end of it, which could discourage some new players.

[sparkeh]

Well I totally I agree with the sentiment here. There are definately players/groups that have no interest in talking me 'cos I am low level. But you know what, screw 'em. If they metagame like that then I dont wanna RP with them anyway.

[Blue_Wyrm]

I will just throw my thoughts around, because I'm not sure if I want the challenge ratings to disappear or not...

When I first arrived here, I must say I was quite well welcomed by the large amount of "Impossibles" that hang around Sundren; I never got the feel that I was some frowned upon because I was a "shrimp", oppositely I felt many went out of their way to include my character in their RP and conversations, and I felt much OOC sympathy from these people even though their characters were sometimes bastards. This is definitely not a place with snobbish RPers, and it's one of the reasons I stayed.

When I first arrived, before I even knew there was a Sundren Menu, all I could do to find other players was explore the cities, then the countrysides relying on the creatures' Challenge Rating to find the place where there would be players of my level to meet and party up with. Why not just go anywhere and not look at challenge ratings? Well to a newcomer on any RP server, high level characters have a sort of intimidating feel, an aura like : "I am a veteran around here busy with a huge storyline and a vast amount of followers and DM attention". I know I'll tend to flock around level 3 "challenging" people because that's where I'll easily find comrades, as we tend to gather around a campfire and chat a while about our backgrounds until we feel like stretching our legs on goblins. A good example is Krya Flacongrace, whom I met as his new character Ethane, and we've been OOC friends ever since as we got to know the place together. That's one of the reasons for me to not want CRs to be removed; it allows newcomers to find their siblings.

Another good reason to keep CRs would be, undoubtedly, PvP. What?! Are you smoking crack BlueWyrm?! Not at all. Those who run around and randomly attack people with sometimes little regards for the PvP rules are 99%* of the time low-level newcomers who need a bit of guidance. I haven't seen Salisse or Lyonette send level 3's to the Forest, because they know it's much funnier to make them tremble with RP. When PvP comes, I feel a certain amount of metagaming should be done. WHAT?! BURN THE WITCH!! Well yes, I feel level 3s should be given a chance, should be made to piss in their pants and flee or be downed with the wonderful .subdual command, while level 15s may fight as savagely as they want between themselves with their mad skillz if they both agree with that. I've always been one to condone a certain amount of OOC guide IC actions for the best enjoyment of all (this -is- a game), and I think the CR is a very useful tool in making decisions where the player behind the other screen could otherwise be stripped of his fun.


* 86,74% of statistics are made up

[Echelon13]

Agreed 100% with Blue Wyrm. He has some excellent points, and ones that I can get behind.

[nutranurse]

In all honesty, while you have a few good points Wyrm, the CR ratings really do subtract from alot of RP.
If there were no CRs then players would actually view monsters and people with some measure of caution, not right click them see "Effortless" and then go bashing away. The CRs also take away from what you can and cannot RP. For instance if a lower levelled player were to try intimidating another, or was just attempting to get others to notice them through means that are not silly/insane the others can simply right click them, check his CR and then shrug them off.

Also one thing that does bother me a bit is that people hang out amongst the higher levels because of the CR. No. Just No. A higher level should be able to let others know they are higher levelled by their RP. And their RP, as a veteran, should be different than a new comer. If they did not have the CR to let others know they "Grinded to XX level" then it would force them to actually act as if they had power and were powerful.

Look at Rook. People knew she was powerful and held power because she acted like it. Granted she scared more people away than attracted, it was the way she acted that got others to come to her during certain situations. Players should be able to accomplish this if they are going to play a high levelled character. It should be their RP that exudes "I am a veteran around here busy with a huge storyline and a vast amount of followers and DM attention" not their CR.

[Blue_Wyrm]

That's a good point Nurse, CR does create a "magnet syndrome" which makes other players hover around high level players, but then I think it's even more apparent with DM-played characters. That's because you simply can't be up to date with the Sundren's most recent events if you stay by yourself, and because something exciting or interesting RP is bound to happen near these people. It's something kind of hard to change, if it can be, and I am not even sure it's simply related to CRs as much as it's related to the game's inherent problem that there cannot be a DM behind every player at once, and that some player have limited playtime and want to see something meaningful happen in the occasionnal one-two hours that they have, even if it doesn't involve them.

Otherwise I understand your point that you want people to be recognized by their RP, which is very understandable, but I must say that while the character level should never be a direct factor, Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy rolls should be considered when reacting to someone (and those do increase, sadly, with levels and not with RP, but this is fairly covered in another thread by Rhifox, I think). In that sense, a Lyonette with 0 intimidate glaring at Roger is going to make him smirk and wink at her instead of shying his stare away, even if he knows her to be the commander of the Scarlet Lions (of course the reaction depends with each character). So my point is, stats can be relevant in roleplay, though they must be used in the right way.

I certainly see where your request comes from Nurse, I just think this is a very tricky thing to remove Challenge Ratings, it can end in fixing issues and creating others. I still don't know where I really stand in this, I'm just bringing in counter-arguments to fuel the discussion. What are the players willing to pay in exchange for RP cohesiveness?

[Saulus]

Basically if we did do this, not only would it be an overly large amount of work but some certain things with examine won't work anymore hence why we already decided awhile ago not to do this.

You're free to obviously debate its pros and cons just don't expect to see it happen.

[Machiavelli]

You're free to obviously debate its pros and cons just don't expect to see it happen.

Ah! The very essence of a spirited forum debate

[Brygun]

Im for the challenge rating REMAINING.

With custom creatures you LACK the RP information your character with "season" or "years" of listening to tales would know about the little blue dudes with white hats and the how more dangerous the one with the red hat and white beard is.

An elf for instance is over 100 years old. I dont have the RL time to spend 100 years hearing random Sundren lore to know if those guys are easy, tough or epic.

Our RP characters would hear about orcs, ogres, zombies and have some idea of who was killed by them or who lived meeting them.

With custom monsters (a good thing) there is no longer any OOC research you can do to reflect you RPing IC knowledge.

It also greatly impacts the PvP since 10 level higher characters smacking lowbies is a waste and lowbies need to know when they are out gunned.

Even if you read the forum you do NOT know as much as your character does many aspects of the world.

There is no way in the graphic sets to show the skill of a persons fighting stance, steadiness of blade, ease of magic, finese in magic that ARE the ways to know whether someone is higher or lower skilled than you.

A level 5 fighter might emote himself as being *moves with amazing grace* but that would seem sloppy to a level 10 fighter or just basic to a level 15. And a level 1 fighter could use the same emote, since they are a trained fighter.

Game system lacks the thousand cues to RP properly. The CR rating exists so we have at least a clue of what the RP should be.

[rustediron]

Hmm... the best option would probably be to set it so that the player can choose whether they're rating can or can't be seen, as well as being able to choose whether they can or can't see other ratings.

[undeadsteak]

There is no way in the graphic sets to show the skill of a persons fighting stance, steadiness of blade, ease of magic, finese in magic that ARE the ways to know whether someone is higher or lower skilled than you.

A level 5 fighter might emote himself as being *moves with amazing grace* but that would seem sloppy to a level 10 fighter or just basic to a level 15. And a level 1 fighter could use the same emote, since they are a trained fighter.

Game system lacks the thousand cues to RP properly. The CR rating exists so we have at least a clue of what the RP should be.

This point has been brought up alot. "A character whos higher level would have more scars." Well, so? A level 1 can still be the same, and have lots of scars. A fighter doesnt need to "Move with amazing grace." Obviously, if he was fighting something you'd see it, but while hes just walking around, you can't notice anything about him that makes him look better then anyone else, unless he emotes so, and even then, a level 10 fighter and a level 1 fighter can still have the same amount of bruises, scars, or whatever.

Judging someone on how powerful they are by looking at their CR thhen saying "Oh, they must have lots of marks showing they've been in battle alot." Is metagaming.

Sure, if your seeing how much a crap load of ton dmg a person is doing and how quickly they attack and how well they fight, then you should be able to notice their powerful. But that doesn't really need the challenge rating to tell that they're powerful. Same with spells. Obviously, a mage casting meteor swarm would look pretty friggin powerful, and you'd get a idea of how powerful the person is. Once again, you don't need to look at CR. CR pretty much just causes metagaming as you can look at it even when theres really nothing showing how strong that person might be.


Really, I think CR should remain on Monsters n all (Not DM spawned stuff, however, but those CR's are already messed up, so *Shrug.) And it should be removed on players.

[Scourn]

One thing to remember is not all creatures have matching Cr rateing when you right click them. Such as the Bloodmain orcs, Bane Knight, Tao, to name a few. So that in itself makes right clicking to see how "Badass" something is pointless