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remove NWN2 passive bonuses to Spellcraft + Tumble

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  • remove NWN2 passive bonuses to Spellcraft + Tumble

    As I have mentioned on Discord, I would like to propose removing the NWN2 passive bonuses to Spellcraft and Tumble.
    As implemented by the game, there exists passive bonuses to taking each:

    Spellcraft: +1 saves vs spells per 5 ranks.
    This serves to increase the resistance of spellcasters to other spellcasters, both PC and NPC alike. Generally, this reduces the effective window of any DC spells by 20% (a +4 bonus over 20 ranks), and is practically equivalent to taking a stacking Spell Defense feat (+1 save DCs vs [School]) for every spell-school, every five ranks (so, 32 free feats over 20 ranks).

    Tumble: +1 dodge AC per 10 ranks
    This serves to increase the Dodge AC of everyone vs both standard and touch attacks. Generally, this decreases hit-rate by 10% (+2 over 20 ranks), for gaining an AC bonus that stacks with everything and works in heavy armor and with a tower-shield - all while increasing the general value and demand for Uncanny Dodge to prevent losing the same bonus. As AC is king in combat, this extraneous +2 functions to increase combat power-level on par and stacking with MFP.

    Neither of these bonuses exist in tabletop, and removal of both would affect both NPCs and PCs:
    PCs would likely receive the better end of the bargain, as the removal of passive bonuses would remove these two skills as "Must-haves" and permit investment elsewhere, while increasing hit rates and spell-effectiveness by greater percentage against targets of all varieties.
    NPCs would see a potential reduction in defensive bonuses outside their base stats, while also allowing for future content passes to be more consistent in their presented threat and risk.

    Detriments to this proposition:
    PCs would see a reduction in up to 2 AC, and up to 4 in saves vs spells.

    I do not see that reducing the maximum AC cap to be a negative thing, though some content may have a higher risk until it can get a balance pass.
    I do not see that the penalty to saves is impossible to overcome via other methods, as save-stacking is currently overly possible (ex. Superior Resistance + Protection from Spells for a +14). Reducing spell-saves globally improves the viability of DC casters, relative to the current to Buff-and-Brawl meta of NWN2.

    Opinions and feedback please.

    Cheers,
    Kit

    Frazer Mfg. is a department of Frazer Fabrications, focused on the construction of high-end custom-crafted equipment and gear.
    Also part of Frazer Fabrications are:
    Frazer Armories - focused on resale of prefabricated arms and armorments;
    Frazer Merchantile - specialising in economic analysis and scaleable logistics; and
    Frazer Laboratories - the leading independent R&D for sundrite theory, arcane and mechanical engineering


    James Frazer: Anthropological Gearhead, Techsmith, Arcanaphysisist, Renown Proprietor
    AKA: Artifax Grade B Exigo Corporation Syndicated Associate VP, Professor, Quartermaster of the Schild Whurest-ExiCorp Joint-Operations Facility, and 'Annoying Mechanist'
    Theme: Stil Alive

    Grid vs. Squeegle, not Good vs. Evil

    Distances and travel-times for the Sunderian Peninsula:Free Version 1.0

    Crafting changes are a dead-horse topic, but feel free to ask me about crafting: If I can't answer it, I bet I can direct you to someone who can.
    To those who are interested in making or have crafting-oriented characters, please check out the Fabricator's Collective and how to get FC-certified.
    crafting tutorial.

    Unfortunate truths:
    Intention: [DM > Crafting > Faction Store > Drop > Regular Store]
    Reality: [DM > Faction Store > Drop > Regular Store> Crafting]

  • #2
    If they're making it like PnP then they'd have to modify it to affect defensive fighting and total defense to provide the extra AC for having 5 tumble. And make 5 ranks in spell craft give a +2 UMD bonus.

    Comment


    • #3
      I like it.

      I don't think decreasing AC by 1-2 would hurt that much, especially in a party. As for the save bonuses...I like magic to be scary so yeah, I'd love for that to disappear. We already have a few save-boosting items that don't exist in PnP (amulets, rings etc), so saves are already a bit higher than usual.

      I don't agree with Stray that you'd have to add anything extra for Tumble; it is supremely useful already for avoiding AoO's. Weren't skill synergies a 3E thing?
      UTC+8
      Yes, I realise my RP writing sucks. Just be thankful I keep it short

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      Thalanis Moonshadow

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      • #4
        I like the idea of Tumble being remade into a short-ranged teleport (When I say short I mean, like 10 feet) to allow players invested in it to be able to reposition to advantageous places with rogues and such or get out of combat if they're blocked in or surrounded.

        As well as a proper counter-spelling system to exist on the server to make use of spellcraft would be fab.

        Active use skills that give situational advantages > Passive skills that are just always good to have period.

        And yeah, passive synergies should go.
        Aesa Volsung - Uthgardt Warrior

        Formerly
        Gabrielle Atkinson - Mage Priest of Torm
        Anasath Zesiro - Mulhorandi Morninglord
        Kyoko - Tiefling Diviner
        Yashedeus - Cyrist Warlock
        Aramil - Nutter

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        • #5
          I am a fan of active uses for things.
          Worth noting is that we have some custom Sundren feats that could be tweaked:

          Fighting Defensively/Total Defense: we have both of these actions, adding a boost based on skill would be in accordance with tabletop, since you do have a tradeoff in AB/ # attacks for their use.

          Reposition: We do have a feat currently that allows swapping places with an ally. Could improve the utility to support making a tumble-check to end up on the far-side of a hostile if you target them instead.

          Counter-spelling: Would require a fair bit of groundwork, since it needs a reaction at the "Identify Spell" phase, followed by a bunch of conditionals based on distance, prepared spells, dispelling checks, etc. but might be possible.

          Skill Synergies are very much a 3.0/3.5 thing, and do not appear to exist in Pathfinder, so not having them would be in-line with current design philosophy.

          Frazer Mfg. is a department of Frazer Fabrications, focused on the construction of high-end custom-crafted equipment and gear.
          Also part of Frazer Fabrications are:
          Frazer Armories - focused on resale of prefabricated arms and armorments;
          Frazer Merchantile - specialising in economic analysis and scaleable logistics; and
          Frazer Laboratories - the leading independent R&D for sundrite theory, arcane and mechanical engineering


          James Frazer: Anthropological Gearhead, Techsmith, Arcanaphysisist, Renown Proprietor
          AKA: Artifax Grade B Exigo Corporation Syndicated Associate VP, Professor, Quartermaster of the Schild Whurest-ExiCorp Joint-Operations Facility, and 'Annoying Mechanist'
          Theme: Stil Alive

          Grid vs. Squeegle, not Good vs. Evil

          Distances and travel-times for the Sunderian Peninsula:Free Version 1.0

          Crafting changes are a dead-horse topic, but feel free to ask me about crafting: If I can't answer it, I bet I can direct you to someone who can.
          To those who are interested in making or have crafting-oriented characters, please check out the Fabricator's Collective and how to get FC-certified.
          crafting tutorial.

          Unfortunate truths:
          Intention: [DM > Crafting > Faction Store > Drop > Regular Store]
          Reality: [DM > Faction Store > Drop > Regular Store> Crafting]

          Comment


          • #6
            Counter-spelling in PnP is one of those things that was -built- for turn based, and doesn't really work in a real time environment like NWN2 imo. I'd like to see something devised that works better in an active environment.
            Aesa Volsung - Uthgardt Warrior

            Formerly
            Gabrielle Atkinson - Mage Priest of Torm
            Anasath Zesiro - Mulhorandi Morninglord
            Kyoko - Tiefling Diviner
            Yashedeus - Cyrist Warlock
            Aramil - Nutter

            GMT -8

            Comment


            • #7
              Isn't there already an ability called "Bypass" that lets you get by an enemy? From what I recall it's bugged though.

              Counterspelling, whilst super cool, would be a nightmare to code.

              Also, it would be easy to abuse if enemies' spells weren't randomized. For example, we all know squid-face casts X then Y then Z so it would be hard not to use our metagame knowledge and memorize those three spells
              UTC+8
              Yes, I realise my RP writing sucks. Just be thankful I keep it short

              Characters
              Thalanis Moonshadow

              Comment

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