Magic Items

[Raksha]

PLEASE NOTE: This is not a thread of complaints. I'd just like to know what's coming in the future, and know how the staff thinks.

I notice that in the new improved stores, there are hardly any +1-equivalent items. By my count, there are currently about two (a certain axe at a certain smith, and a certain sword at a certain other smith). There are also a few flavor items that are pretty close to being useless. After all, let's be honest: a weapon which decreases damage in favor of a boost to a broken skill is not very useful.

Is the staff looking at taking Sundren in a truly low-magic direction, or will such items become available again?

If the answer is the former,

-- Do you all have any plans to counter hybrid casters? Any caster can get a +1-equivalent weapon at first level, and any arcane caster can by 8th level have a +2 Keen (so +3-equivalent) weapon with spells. More monsters with dispel? More strict resting restrictions? Evil chiuahuas of mage-eating doom?

-- Similarly, are there any plans to give full-BAB classes any love? Anything that can't cast is notably crippled, especially in an environment with monsters that were balanced for a previous set of magic items. Parties or not, a fighter with AC 22 staring down the barrel of a loaded Umber Hulk is in trouble regardless of level.

Remember, please! Not criticizing, just wanted to see what you all are planning for us.

[Dragoncleric]

I second this post.
I already brought up my notions on the magic items, and we may need something, because standard D&D (monsters, etc) encounters are not as balanced for low-magic, as say...Warhammer is, to give things a fair chance.

[Vichtor]

Asking what is planned for the future is like asking a chef when his next recipe will be ready. Often it takes some degree of trial and error and experimentation with many small factors to reach a state of acceptance.

Magic users ARE powerful in a low-magic world, but it is difficult for them to build up to that power. Most will make friends to help them, and ensure those friends reap the benefits of that magic...this negates the need for outside magical items, as the players provide that edge instead of an arbitrary and imagined source.

The argument is, of course: "We can't all be friends with mages."

True. It's a world, not a personalized story for each and every person. Some people get the shorter end of the stick. Use your brain, find a way around it. Smart mages will start up a business to fund their "associates"...that business often includes the sale of scrolls and wands...a way for everyone else to get those "magic items" that still originates from the playerbase. Yes; mages have the potential to be incredibly powerful...and rich...if done right, yes others are at a disadvantage later on in comparison.

But you are very, very wrong about your statement with the Fighter and the Umberhulk. Any Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric can make all the difference in the world. If you don't have that, tactics can drastically alter a situation as well.

[Raksha]

Magic users ARE powerful in a low-magic world, but it is difficult for them to build up to that power.

I have to disagree with this point. Currently, with lag being the way it is, the surest defense is to make your AC high enough that a monster will only hit you on a natural 20. Any fighter / mage / EK build, for instance, will start off with medium or heavy armor and be able to stack Mage Armor and Protection from Evil at will, and Shield for short lengths of time.

Mage-fighters will start more powerful than normal full-BABers, and they will only grow more.

Clerics, of course, are stupidly powerful from low-levels as well.

Most will make friends to help them, and ensure those friends reap the benefits of that magic...this negates the need for outside magical items, as the players provide that edge instead of an arbitrary and imagined source.

What argument, though, is there for playing a fighter? If a cleric or mage can do what a fighter does, but do it better in every way, then there exists no reason to play a fighter.

Sure, the mage could simply buff his fighter friend and stand back. How often have you actually seen that happen? Most players want the glory of the kill. Most players want to feel useful.

The argument is, of course: "We can't all be friends with mages."

True. It's a world, not a personalized story for each and every person. Some people get the shorter end of the stick. Use your brain, find a way around it. Smart mages will start up a business to fund their "associates"...that business often includes the sale of scrolls and wands...a way for everyone else to get those "magic items" that still originates from the playerbase. Yes; mages have the potential to be incredibly powerful...and rich...if done right, yes others are at a disadvantage later on in comparison.

My point is not comparing the wizard in a hat with pointy robes to the fighter. My point is comparing the fighter to clerics and EKs, which make the fighter feel very sad in pants when from level 1, they are more survivable and hit just as accurately.

[Vichtor]

Clerics have always defied the "Hard for Magic to progress" stereotype...it's annoying.

And an EK doesn't happen instantly. In fact it doesn't happen until later levels. It's still difficult to build up to that. And a Mage, Cleric, or EK will never have the raw combat ability of a fighter, especially if that fighter has the backing of said mage, cleric, or EK...in fact..there's nothing that can compare to that fighter combined with that backing, which is, in essence the point of D&D: grouping.

[Raksha]

Take a 3rd-level fighter and a 1-fighter/2-wizard with only 1 hr/level buffs, which can effectively be maintained indefinitely:

FIGHTER AB: 3 base + 3 strength + 1 focus = 7
EK AB: 2 base + 2 strength + 1 focus + 1 magic weapon = 6
FIGHTER AC: 10 base + 8 full plate +1 dexterity + 1 Luck of Heroes + 2 shield = 22
EK AC: 10 base + 8 full plate + 1 dexterity + 2 shield + 4 Mage Armor + 2 Protection from Evil = 27

From the very first levels, an Eldritch Knight in training has nearly equal attack bonus, that gets only better as Heroism, Bulls' Strength and the like comes along. The EK in training has a vastly superior AC, allowing them to basically shrug off all level-appropriate monsters except in large numbers.

I speak from experience in saying that it is easier to fight using an Eldritch Knight in armor than it is to fight using a fighter. In fact, it's easier even without armor, once Mirror Image and the like comes along.

I think that it's worth at least considering how to address, instead of shrugging off with generalities about its power coming later. But that is my opinion only.

EDIT: D'oh, messed up a detail on attack bonus.

[Vichtor]

Take a 3rd-level fighter and a 1-fighter/2-wizard with only 1 hr/level buffs, which can effectively be maintained indefinitely:

Even with current resting system; no...no it cannot.

Play a Wizard, try what you're saying....Mage armor and Protection from evil are the only things that stay on for a significant period. A lower level caster will split-cast those to try to make them last long enough to rest again.

Buffs like what you're speaking of aren't indefinite until about caster level 7 or so...maybe sooner if you get metamagic feats to aid you.


Again though.... a fighter TEAMED with a caster would blow all your examples away.

[Ula Fey]

...or just take weapon proficiency (martial) at first level, go three straight levels of wizard (or sorceror) and you've got bulls strength/cats grace/mirror image/ghoslty visage/whatever at level three, straight out of the box, still heading for EK but without having 'wasted' a level on fighter.

But I don't know whether there is ever an end to this kind of argument HOWEVER I do agree with Raksha's point that the item levels on the server have been made way more low-magic, without the monsters being similarly reduced (I presume - I haven't explored too far yet)

[Raksha]

Given that I've seen people randomly drop to rest almost anywhere, I'd say that it's a fair assertion that 1 hr/level spells can be up all the time in combat. Tellingly, most of the people resorting to frequent resting were fighters, because they simply didn't have what it took to fight more than one or two encounters before they were in the red.

And of course a mage and a fighter combo is superior. I'm not arguing otherwise. What I am arguing is that if the world is consistently low-magic without balance for the casters, then there will be no fighters, or precious few.

Also, I'd point out that with the experience system as it currently is, any character that can consistently solo will advance far faster than anyone who requires a group to work. It's a sad truth, and I don't think it can be overcome with ease until the world is more populated.

This is my last post in the thread, I don't want this to devolve into extended discussion / debate.

[Saulus]

Given that I've seen people randomly drop to rest almost anywhere, I'd say that it's a fair assertion that 1 hr/level spells can be up all the time in combat. Tellingly, most of the people resorting to frequent resting were fighters, because they simply didn't have what it took to fight more than one or two encounters before they were in the red.

And of course a mage and a fighter combo is superior. I'm not arguing otherwise. What I am arguing is that if the world is consistently low-magic without balance for the casters, then there will be no fighters, or precious few.

Also, I'd point out that with the experience system as it currently is, any character that can consistently solo will advance far faster than anyone who requires a group to work. It's a sad truth, and I don't think it can be overcome with ease until the world is more populated.

This is my last post in the thread, I don't want this to devolve into extended discussion / debate.

Soloing isn't that easy, especially with the reduced amount of gold players will be able to gain, so having a lot of healing potions/spell preparations on hand won't be as common. People will gain more xp in a party, and fighting will be easier, especially in the higher level areas.

[Vichtor]

The only real option is to play, assess the environment, and give as detailed and constructive feedback as possible. As I said before, I expect it to take some trial and error to find a universal balance, and we'll have to help give the information needed to find that balance. That's going to be our "job" in this.

[Ithildin]

While a Knight is pretty powerful its also not a pure class like a fighter is. There are many Fighter type classes such as the berserker, rdd, and weapon master builds out there that are very powerful, I have seen weapon masters critting over 100, bersekers doing around 50 or so damage on non-crit hits.

I'm sure there are other fighter based combos out there that are overpowered, they just don't stand out as much because they aren't as flashy as eldritch knights.

[Vichtor]

Off topic: Simplicity being something you love, have you seen 4th ed. Lallendos? It's all about simple. Fewer classes overall, no more prestige classes, feat "trees" for more streamlined character progression....they made the whole system sleek and simple, yet still very diverse.

It's good to know people in "The Coast".

[Dragoncleric]

Hmm if anyone is even thinking about getting rid of a class, you'd better put up with some stiff resistance.
There's a problem (and not with the classes) if the game leads have to think of such things just to get some balance in.

You know what class I've yet to see now because of this magic barren land? Monks. Everyone else is wizard/sorceror/warlock/cleric/druid + whatever now. They are desperate for AC via armour and spells.

Myself I'm pretty much a purest. I stick to one class, and only divde evenly into a single prestige class if it's one I like and can earn in NWN2: Typically (wizard/palemaster, Rogue/shadowdancer or bard/RDD)

I just saw a rogue/warlock on today (quite original actually), but it made me wonder if that was just for it's magics to help out?
See I'm reading all these posts and now I get the red warning light: Min/max random-as various classes time?

No thanks. I don't want to be compelled ever, to add levels in a class that makes no sense other then to get ahead in the game, nor have my initial choice limited because everyone and thier mother has at least one level in everything but the kitchen sink.

[wangxiuming]

I don't really think the classes need balancing - it just doesn't make sense that every class would be "equal in power." People shouldn't play bards and expect to be as magically proficient as sorcerers or martially powerful as fighters. People play bards for their unique talents. That said, I do think a server should probably be balanced to be survivable for most class options.

I definitely disagree with the idea that the server needs to remove classes from the playable selection - one of the things I love about the current D&D system is the variety of options one has in customizing his/her character. I've never played first edition, and have no idea what's in store for the fourth, but it sounds like these editions have class selection closer to that of a MMO: everybody is limited to a cookie-cutter assortment of classes and it's practically impossible to differentiate your character from the rest of the world in any significant way. This might work in small settings with only a few player characters (which I imagine is what first edition catered to), but it'd probably be much more boring for a potentially large server such as Sundren.

The simple truth is 3.5 wasn't meant to be completely balanced - the classes are only supposed to be viable choices. And given that Sundren isn't a PvP-only or Arena server, balancing the classes shouldn't be a huge concern anyway.