Re-Balance.

[Mattimo]

Okay first of a question...

Has the server been re balanced so your suppose to always party up with people? If this is so well thats just down right unfair for those in different time zones, like my self.

I ask this question because I have found that with my character at Level 5, where can I go? Sharahan hills? 12 Exp at the most from Spittlefist Defenders.. Okay thats a bit pointless.

Mossclaw Meet? Well considering how magical items have been removed the Best AC you can get is 22 or 23 with a tower shield and full plate, so your looking out getting owned pretty hard. Besides that, Gnolls give 12exp too, wonderful.

Aquoa, too hard for a level 5. Sestra Caves, could be sitting their for 10 minutes trying to hit the target once.

Sewers beneath military quarter, 4xp per kill.

Stock up on potions and healing kits? Good idea, problem is the cost of those has not changed and now with the lack of sellable loot well you make no profit back. Not to mention 1500gp for a scroll to ressurect a fallen comrade.. That also disheartens partying, well it does for me.. having to wait a while before your party member can catch up.

Now, the quest system is ment to allow leveling to be better, fair enough but it isn't out yet and so what you can do is limited, is this intended?

If it is not intended then my suggestion is to recalibrate some of the things like the price of potions and healing kits. And atleast give the spittfist chieften a chance to drop something better then a deadly sling, I've gotten 3 of him out the 4 times I've killed him.

[Mattimo]

Another thought, If your going to encourage partying and so forth please increase to the spawn rate and or amount of spawned hostiles.

The more people in the same area their is the less likley you will be able to do anything.

For Role Player reasons, You won't group up with some players because of the evil nature or good nature of that character which should conflict with yours.

Yes, their are good aligned characters and evil aligned.

[Lothoir]

I'd like to add to this that I was recently in a party that totalled seven characters, and while I had an absolute blast and it was the best roleplaying session I've had in Sundren, we got absolutely no xp at all, except for a few goblins that we met as we left the hills.

Granted, seven players are a big group, but it would be nice to be able to go out in a large party and get some xp, especially seeing as with the wipe, there will a good number of people in the hills, then moving on to th next leveling area, then the next. Maybe there could be a baseline minimum of 10 or 15 percent xp?

More spawns would also be welcome, as we plowed through everything. Maybe there could be some scaling, with 1.5 monsters per 2 characters or something?

Otherwise though, I've been having a blast. And the lag has really been dying down for me from what it used to be.

[Stratigo]

Actually I agree with the spawning thing. I don't know if its possible, but can you make spawns larger based on how large a party is that triggers it?

[Dragoncleric]

Personally I'd like to see the old auto Rp xp that I sometimes saw on NWN servers. You know the kind where you could get say 50xp every RL 30 mins or an hour...just to RP when a DM wasn't on. (You had to move every 15 minutes so you wouldn't get it afk next to someone though)

I don't know the original post just sounds like: "More hack and slash please so I can faster xp?" I could be mis-reading that though.
I've gone though level 8, level 6 and level 3 a few times now (wipes), and to be honest, the only time I earn much is when a DM is on and around, either doing an event, or what-not.

Otherwise, people just go out to grind and kill. It's a sad fact still. Level cap or no, people still want to level up.

One thing I have to agree with: bring back the bloody basic magical items! (even if they are the green things I've been seeing) I'm not even bothering to spend coin on consumables that are temporary (potions and scrolls in my case), meaning my coin just goes into the bank, with nothing to spend it on.

[undeadsteak]

Wait, the green things r gone?! . I loved the customized loot. As for players having a evil char who is a loner or such, im pretty sure this topic has been discussed before, and its your sacrafice for playing such a char. Its not like levels matter that much. As for the baseline minimum, i think thats a good idea.

[Nyssis]

Yeah! Finally got my one level back with Endymion! Time for some serious ownage.

Anyway, the experience system has received a drastic upheaval. Remember, however, that monsters your same level will earn you 20 experience points per kill no matter what. Considering that the Spittlefist archers are CR 3, most of the people leveling in the Hills at the moment will only nab so much. Even the defenders only granted me ~30 experience per kill at level three, and it was a long process to reclaim my level. This will most likely be the same method for, say, a party of level eight characters.

I think the point [of partying] is to really learn what your character's strength is and their weaknesses, and party up logically to counteract each other's deficiencies. Maybe you cannot earn a ton of experience like the last system, but you can spend more time with other players and get to know them. Develop some plans of attack amongst yourselves. In the few occasions that I've partied as my fresh character, I've met a lot of interesting residents of the Valley.

Endymion is not as sociable as most other people, but her ability to accompany them stems from her appreciation of the Hunt and Malar's prophecies. They bring her to the kills and can keep the dangers busy while she pegs them with arrows from afar. Even "lone wolf" characters can party, and the evil ones can make due with the good populous easily if they're smart.

If I'm not mistaken, the areas' challenge ratings escalate in the following pattern: Gate of the Sunderer & the Sewers < Sharahan Hills < Beneath Aquor < Sestra Caves < Mossclaw Meet < Stonegarb Caves < Necropolis. The current experience system calls for several people to be in one group and fighting higher level monsters in order to garner more experience. Unfortunately, a group of level 4 characters would not last long beneath Aquor.

While the new system does make it hard for people to level up at an alarming rate, they can still level. It just takes some patience. However, being ill-equpped doesn't make the process easier and it can frustrate people. I've seen a few characters running around in straight full plate with heavy shields that shouldn't, just to avoid blows. No enchanted items outside of a few specialty stores, and the drop rate of green items has been severely reduced. The price of items and lack of money-making in Sundren is also detrimental.

I'm not above buying stacks of potions and scrolls prior to fighting, but they are a bit overpriced for their usage. Potions of Cure Light Wounds will only last for a short while until enough blows get through my leather armor, and soon I'll have hit points that can't be restored easily with lesser curative items. Receiving approximately 10 gold per goblin, and with the lack of drops, will make it dreadfully hard for Endymion to safely do the scouting and tracking that I want her to. Reducing the price will also be good for the newbies.

The spawn rate? Well, I actually like it the way it is. The idea of increasing spawn size to counteract party size is pretty likable in my opinion, also. I'd be nice to see such a feature. Just my fifteen cents.

[Ula Fey]

As your character ages, the max level will go up until it reaches 20. This will not take 5 months like before, we felt that time frame was too long for most people. We also feel it'll help players to always have something to do.

This quote snipped from GBX's post on the new experience system.

This would imply that the system was changed because people thought it was taking too long to get to level 20. Yet under the new level of xp for kills, and with seemingly reduced spawn rates, it's likely to actually take longer.

I guess when the quest system comes in this will have an effect though, as more 'sources' of xp will be available.

Personally, I thought the experience curve system was one of the best features of Sundren - well thought out, and a subtle way to influence the way people played, without overly harshly penalizing or rewarding one particular playstyle over any other. I don't think reducing the xp per kill reduces farming, I think it actually makes many players get frustrated and spend more time killing. Capping the experience you get from killing monsters over a certain timeframe - whether a blunt instrument like a weekly cap, or something more subtle like the experience curve - seems a better method, as there then comes a point where you get nothing for killing, so it really isn't worth the risk.

[Raksha]

I, too, would like to see the return of the curve, and actually the old experience values.

Under the old system, there is actually a reward to sitting around the campfire, and RPing out injury, and actually visiting an area that is not a combat zone. That reward is that each kill afterwards will give more XP until you are about where you "should" be. This also applies to players that have a limited time to play, or have to go on vcation for an extended period of time. This is a true reward instead of merely a booby prize, since you have to kill fewer monsters and therefore put your character at less risk of death and subsequent loss of XP, as well as expending fewer consumables.

Under the new system, the level cap looks as though it will only come into play for the very most extreme grinders. I can safely say that it has taken me far longer to achieve a given XP under the new system than the old.

While I am not the best at working out the math, it appears that:

-- More kills, on average, will be needed to achieve a given level, increasing the incentive to farm.
-- Those kills can come at any time, in as great a concentration as desired, increasing the incentive to farm.
-- There is no expicit or implicit reward for actually RPing, except for an occasional nugget of 25 XP that could be picked up by killing just one Spittlefist Defender. Decreased incentive to not-farm.

So it does seem to me in looking at it, that progression will be slower for the sort of players that Sundren would like to attract, and only faster for folks who do a disproportionate amount of monster-farming.

DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER DISCLAIMER: I'm not second-guessing the staff, and perhaps this is what you all want to do. Y'all rock. But from an objective analysis of the system, it looks as though the incentive is running in the wrong direction.

[Ula Fey]

That reward is that each kill afterwards will give more XP until you are about where you "should" be. This also applies to players that have a limited time to play, or have to go on vcation for an extended period of time. This is a true reward instead of merely a booby prize, since you have to kill fewer monsters and therefore put your character at less risk of death and subsequent loss of XP, as well as expending fewer consumables.

Quoted for truth. This is what I loved about the curve, it rewarded RP by minimising the killing you 'need' to do to advance, and makes RP characters rather than combat characters a much more viable proposition (unless you are happy to always be level 3 - some players will be, but I suspect they'd be a minority). Raksha just puts it better than I could *sigh* as always

[wangxiuming]

Especially now that everybody and their mother is walking around Sharahan, my character really wants to be able to invite everybody (and their respective mothers) into parties, but it makes it hard to do so if the entire party is going to be punished for inviting that sixth or seventh player.

I also want to say that the dilemma the Dev team faces is not one that we do not recognize; it's hard to decide just how to balance out a server. Our input (mine, at least) is purely meant to be constructive commentary on current problems from our standpoint, and I in no way mean any disrespect.

[SkinnyKhai]

One thing that I've noticed (although I can't see any scripts so I have no way of knowing if this IS the case), is that whenever I get little-to-no XP from running around with a party (and granted, I've only done it twice) I'm usually partied with a couple of people who are Yellow/Challenging and Orange/Very Difficult. Because the Orange/Very Difficult people aren't getting any XP from the monsters, no one is - because the XP is (I think) based on the highest level character in the party.

Is there a way to average that statistic out so that a Lvl 5 and a Level 3 will earn experience at the rate of a Level 4 if they're in a party? Or is this already done and I'm just terrible at math, observation, and game programming? 'Cause I'm cool with that. =D

Thanks for working on Sundren, Dev. Team. I hope we're not asking too much of you!

[undeadsteak]

Eh, i would like to see the curve back as well. The XP Curve was fine, i don't see why it had to be removed

[GodBeastX]

The issue is that some people didn't get the curve or understand the purpose. There was also people trying to exploit it in ways. And then there were people who don't login until their curve is gone.

Now, while 20 exp for equal level seems low. Get a party of 5 and try to wreck something 3 levels above your party. You wind up with much more than 20, with a party, you're probably looking at 60 or so with very little hinderance to level.

If 20 experience is found to be too low, we will raise it, if too much, we will lower it. It's not our intent to frustrate players, but we also didn't want people level 20 in a week. See the problem?

Now, things you may not be aware of as players. The area designers were largely unaware of the resource methods of NWN2 as regards to memory requirements. The area designs wound up smaller indoors than we intended (the Dungeons). After talking to them, they've been very happy to go out and expand certain things. For example, the new necropolis design is much larger and VERY cool. Much better than current. This will give room for more spawns and such.

The reason we don't make respawn rate fast? Simple! We don't want people circling one area, which nobody on the forums right now can tell me they havn't done (Maybe a small % of you, just generalizing for emphasis).

The loot system is being redone where bosses and such will give the loots sought in the dungeons more than the regular critters. We want to encourage beginning a dungeon and finishing it.

I admit, I've had little time to observe the effects of the new experience system, but today I have been starting to.

The quest system is right around the corner, it got set back because of my wife's health issues and work related stuff, but it's very far along, any day sort of finishing. This will add alot of experience and rewards gained for play. Not to mention lore and such.

We are always considering suggestions, some just take longer for us to discuss and decide upon.

[Venture]

your wife's health has to take priority. I wanna see quests in but take as long as needed if a loved one needs your time more man.