See invisibility, stealth, true seeing and the like

[Esteten]

I'm actually not sure how the system currently is, but I know that in PW's in nwn1 all spells and abilities that granted guaranteed seeing invisibility and stealth were remade to give the target 10 spot and listen instead (or more for stronger spells)

If that's nothow it currently is, could that be fixed? Since the whole concept about rogues and hiding is kinda blown up, melted down, forged into a concept and blown up again if one single spell makes you see hidden enemies.
It also gives casters a huge boost in both PvP and PvE situations, which would be quite unfair thinking about the advantages they already have over both NPCs and PCs.

Just a thought, I'm up for discussion!

[Raksha]

Aaah, the true seeing discussion. I was wondering when this would come around. It's a staple of any NWN2 PW.

If True Seeing can be fixed to negate invisibility / etherealness for purposes of seeing, and give +20 to spot and listen checks, that would be best. However, if that can't be done I'd also remind you that a lot of stealth players use it as a quasi-invisibility -- stealthing in situations where they couldn't, like in the middle of an open grassy field. It implies sneaking from cover to cover.

If one of my characters has True Seeing and a rogue-y thing is properly emoting sneaking up on me, I'll roll spot and listen, and cheerfully lose. If someone comes up to me in the open with True Seeing on, I'm going to see them.

[Esteten]

That's something I took for granted.
Large open field, stealthed rogue in the middle of it, ofc he can be seen.
Large open field, stealthed rogue behind you, ofc he can't be seen.

But I'm also looking for that feeling, you know when seeing someone pop up behind you, one you haven't seen, and then he runs off behind a rock and dissapears. I'm also looking for the abililty of rogues to gain information by sneaking after people, and if they can be seen maybe players wouldn't talk as they should or, not hopefully, metagame and say "i feel someone is watching us, let's take this transition to a far away unknown place"

[Kaybrie]

I'm actually not sure how the system currently is, but I know that in PW's in nwn1 all spells and abilities that granted guaranteed seeing invisibility and stealth were remade to give the target 10 spot and listen instead (or more for stronger spells)

If that's nothow it currently is, could that be fixed?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The idea of the stealth/invisibility differentiation is simple; mundane vs arcane. It may seem like invisibility completely nullifies the usefulness of stealth, but in all truth it doesn't. Allot of classes and even some races can get see invisibility, which just allows you to see through magical fields. So why if a rogue is hiding behind a rock should see invisibility allow you to detect him?

In epic rules that's more how this works in a mundane vs arcane sense, in that invisibility grants +20 to hide checks, and a spot that beats a DC of 20 on a non-hiding opponent allows them to be spotted, but that's specifically epic rules, which I don't agree at all with being applied to pre-level 20 characters.

2 Cents

EDIT: PS, I understand that perhaps what you may have been more pointing towards was the fact that the things are broken, to this I say; wait for the next update where they're supposed to be fixed.

[Esteten]

Yes, and then we might have stealth animation aswell!
I was referrign to the spells that allows you to see stealthed characters.

[Kaybrie]

Yeah, but as I said, those see through magical fields, not through rocks. Even True seeing in pen and paper flat out says in the description that it will reveal any form of magical stealth (Illusions, invisibility, etherealness) but it won't allow you to see through real objects, or detect somebody who is simply in a position where you can't see him (Hiding).

This is one of the large reasons why Rogues are the Wizards antithesis, because wizards don't have methods of spotting hidden characters, as it should be. The triangle goes;

Wizard > Fighter > Rogue > Wizard

If you disrupt that then Wizards become more powerful then they already are! =O

[nutranurse]

The last I heard stealth and invis are broken, in that you can still discern an image. Rolls don't matter, actual invis /stealth does. Supposedly fixed in next update.

Well I know that you can discern the characters image with the invisibility, but I believe that stealth works just fine as far as the graphics for it go. They actually disappear unless you detect them, which is where it is broken.

[Rhazeal]

Untill Obsidian correctly implements stealth, I do not see us doing anything about it.

"Hide in plain sight" is a bit of a giveaway, eh?