Heart Warder (non-good) / Seductress

[Lotus]

The closes I could find to Sune that was evil was Malcanthet, the Succubus Queen.

If anyone wants to play a devotee of the Succubus Queen, same as before: send me a PM for ... consultation.

[Doubtful]

Right, time to weigh in like the proverbial PCP laced irate bull in the shop of unbelievably delicate and precariously balanced china.

Rationally, it's quite a bit of work to put together a new PRC and get it all balanced out and working. I feel the pay off for such a narrow focused, non lore fitting and specific class wouldn't really be worth the effort. On the flip side it's given me a bit of motivation to carry on with the 'Sex and gender roles in the realms' type thing I've been writing.

Hyperbolically, given the servers stance on non consensual sex I feel apprehensive about the creation of a class that, if it were a super-villian, would be named Captain Rohypnol. Given the theme of the class it'd need to be application only, probably with questions like 'is your character inspired by 'Your Highness?'' Or 'What makes you think 'Lord of the Wangs' is an appropriate moniker for this server?'

In summary, it's a no from me. The work/reward ratio is poor, the class somewhat narrow in application/close to existing classes and is open to abuse/unwanted behaviour.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I feel like I'm going to have to watch Your Highness again. Thank you doubt!

[nezzerscape]

Well I guess I should have oped not to include the "Heart Warder" in the title and all references. This spanned in a direction I was not looking for (Dogma).

The intent was to have a fun supportive class with flavor and some mechanics to back it up. We already have some controlling classed/races out there, vampire, warlock, bard...

I thought it was a neat concept but I also know adding a class is a lot of work so I did not really think that a new class (any) would get implemented.

I understand the "servers stance on non consensual sex" but this class was not intended to be about sex, consensual or not. It was about attraction and manipulation. Tease or not tease, what would be up to the players.

Also there are many non-lore supported classes (including some Sundren only classes).

Ultimately any new class its about effort vs reward. If the staff feels that it is not worth it then I support their decision.

That said if others would like to formalize it for fun please feel free to comment. I think I might because we (my better half and myself) are interested in such a class.

Nez

[Talleyman99]

I like the idea of new classes, but the concept that has been put forth I feel is one that does not need a lot of mechanical backing to it. Good RP is all that is needed to sell a manipulative seductress. AND will someone PM Lotus so he can put his tips in...

[nezzerscape]

... AND will someone PM Lotus so he can put his tips in...

Already have

[Fuzziebunny]

I know this isn't specific to seduction but I hope this doesn't fall completely off the mark. This is my first go at making a new class ( Yes I know the DM's said no. This is just for fun because I wanted to try to help meet the request of the OP.)


Puppet Master/Mistress

Some adventurers pride themselves on their skills in magic or sword, others crave the glory from the tales and songs spun about their exploits. The puppet master prefers to avoid overt attention. He or she works quietly from the shadows with quiet word softly crooned into the ear of those he or she feels could be useful to them. To allay suspicions, he or she often maintains a cover identity of some other class, typically that of an up and coming bard.

Puppet masters are typically musicians or accomplished dancers or actors. Much like the socially adept, they are charismatic, persuasive, and understand exactly what to say or do to get what they want. They tend to not be motivated by loyalty to any one idea or government. Typically they care little for the needs or desires of others. Their primary goal is to acquire power and influence over those individuals in leadership positions. To be the one secretly pulling the strings and making armies and even countries dance to their own whims or desires.

Hit Die: d6

Requirements:
Spells: Able to cast level 3 Arcane spells
Skills: perform 5 ranks, bluff 8 ranks, disguise 5 ranks
Feats: Skill focus (bluff), Feint

Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silent, Open lock, Pick Pocket, Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Magical Device

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int Modifier

Class Features:
Weapons and Armor: None

Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each puppet master/mistress level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he/she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. He/she does not; however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, and so on). If the character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a puppet master, the player must decide to which class to add each puppet master level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

Touch of Charm: At level 2 the puppet master gains the ability to charm the target of their choice with only a touch of their hand. This works like the spell charm upon the recipient (normal saving throws apply) as if cast by a sorcerer of the puppet masters caster level.

Honeyed words: At 4th level the puppet master has mastered the art of manipulation. Their cunning words and reactive body language make it difficult to disbelieve nearly anything they say. He/She gains the feat Epic Skill Focus (bluff)

Allure: At level 6 the puppet master/mistress knows exactly what to wear and how to wear it to make the impression they most desire. They are skilled and knowledge in fashion, make-up, and hair styles. This translates to +4 Charisma increase. This ability works like spell eagle’s splendor as if it were cast by a sorcerer of the puppet master’s caster level.

Gilded tongue: At 8th level, a puppet master’s voice is so enticing that he/she weakens the ability of opponents to resist his/her will. This translates to an aura that gives a -4 will save to everyone in earshot of the puppet master

Sly insulation: At 10th level, the puppet master can command obedience. They gain the spell dominate monster as a class feature that can be used 3 times daily.

[Doubtful]

Let's break the two things apart - Character concept and Class.

Class first. I see what you're going for but don't think it functions well enough in a wider situation. Using fairly loaded wording like seductress, power kisses et al implies a certain pathology, it may not be what you're thinking about for your characters but if it's a PRC then it'll be open to others and that means different interpretations some more extreme than others.

It's easy to dismiss such concerns as something for the players to sort out, but that fails to take into account the impact encountering Handsy McWangfast, the level 10 seducer who with one kiss can make any PC do anything he wants and they'll like it or they're not role-playing right and are a bad player. Faced with something like that a lot of people would just log off and never return. It takes a depressingly long time for people to come to the staff with issues, they think we don't care, are told the person griefing is a DM bff, don't think we have time, think that this is normal - thats why the class is in like that, etc, etc. In the 7 years I've been DMing here I've seen a stupid amount of depressing shit and extremes of playing that have resulted in genuine trauma and upset to other players, I'm keen to avoid that wherever possible.

So, before I spiral to much down angry alley let's think about what we could do with the class to reduce the chances of poor behaviour at character concept.

Broadening the horizons of the concept would be a great start, move away from the specifics and into the generalisations. Nothing wrong with a controller class who focuses on one or a small group of cohorts.

Fuzzies puppetmaster works well (though there is a puppetmaster class already that specialises in actual puppets).

If you were after mind control abilities then perhaps a charm/dominate chain would work. Initially gaining a charm 1/day ability initially, becoming dominate at mid level and capping out with higher usages. Allow the caster to control their HD+2 in creatures (so they can have a gaggle of lowbies or a single highbie).

I did think about BoVD's charming 'Mindrape' but in all honesty it's just far to potent to be on the server, let alone a use/day spell.

Bug it still seems like a lot of fluff to get a mildly different tasting bard/sorc that just specialises in targeting one or two, rather than a party.

As for the characters, a manly man under the sway of a manipulative woman is an old trope, positively biblical in fact. That doesn't mean it's bad of course, just you'll need to work hard to keep it fresh.

A straight genderswap wouldn't be much better, a manipulative man mentally dominating and controlling a woman just frames the creepy potential.

Another hurdle will be what to do if you get caught in dispells or disjunctions, they'd do away with most domination style effects, potentially ending your character setup on a mid level dungeon run.

Of course the single biggest hurdle you'd have is that even if this PRC existed with suitable capstone mind bending feat, neither you or your partner would have it at character creation, nor potentially for some time afterward. That makes it a pretty terrible choice for a character history.

Instead it might pay to think of ways other than the manipulators magic (which they won't have at level 3) in which their fates have become entwined. Maybe the protector is under a geas to protect the squishy one, it also prevents them talking about it, otherwise maybe honour, culture, plain old manipulated emotions (if you look after my wastrel looser magic-loving daughter for five years then I'll grant you permission to marry my strapping sportacular son and give you a manor house and 20,000 hectares to lord over together).

[nezzerscape]

Wonder points Doubtful!

This type of class would need a particular type of player. I know most of us have both good and bad run-ins with vampires. What I mean is how the player behind the vampires interacts IC and OOC. I will bring up a good example. Redjack always sent me tells during RP when control was going to be attempted and provide me a RP out. While in most situations I could not see a real RP out, but Redjack allowed it. That kind of OOC discussion really made the encounter expectable, even enjoyable. It went from a “dam mechanics / this is BS he is too OP” to “Hmm, let’s see how the story unfolds”. I could have always backed out, but never did. Based on the OOC discussion I was more interested in the story (RP) then my character.

Perhaps spin the “controlling” mechanics similar to vampires. What I mean is the dominate person (short lived / dispel-able) and the long term ghoul. Obviously it would not be a “ghoul” per say but you get the point. So long term relationships would provide additional benefits/restrictions AND require both the players’ and staff’s approval.

I think it would make sense to require casting as in Fuzzienunny example. But if there were additional benefits to the class then, to keep it balanced lose some of the spell progression.

Thank you all for the feed back / response,

Nez

[Thief Of Navarre]

Do the enchantment school and charisma based skills not already achieve this? Skill focus/spell focus are incredibly powerful. My invisible blade pre-wipe was capable of convincing people they were something they were not. You can roleplay this anyway.
I don't think he ever had to resort to violence in a player setting, all pure silver tongued bastardry.

[Fuzziebunny]

The basic problem I see with a "ghoul" type relationship is that this class you want to make would have to be controlled and monitored by DM's much like the vampire class was. That is unless the only benefits the sexy seductress and her boy toy receive were emotional; i.e. Pure RP feats. And there should be clearly defined, obtainable ways to sever the relationship that does not depend on ooc communication. Because while you are a reasonable person who others feel they can talk to oocly, other people might not be viewed so highly.

As for CHA/enchantment based toon, they are on the server and yes they work awesome. I played a heartwarder who was very good at enchantment based spells and who was also very manipulative. Though, I must admit that my toon would never have been considered a seductress. I also think it is possible to see all the effects of emotional manipulation RPed out without any thing special. But I think the idea here is a good one. It seems like goal here is to sort of make a manipulation minded character into a sort of specialty class. Which, I think would work well given what is written about the current lore. The only issue I have with the class is that it does skirt dangerously towards the whole " you can't say no to my manipulation, even if my RP wasn't enough to overcome objections cause (Insert feat here)".

Please don't take that the wrong way Nez. It wasn't directed at you, it is just a generalization. There have been many, many situations where someone has a feat or skill but doesn't want to put the time into the RP to make the story progress. Or they just want you to do what they want done to advance their personal story. They just slap the skill or feat down! And expect you to do it their way no matter what.