Armor Adjustments

[Kaybrie]

Padded: +1 AC, +8 max dex
Leather: +2 AC, +7 max dex
studded: +3 AC, +6 max dex
Chain shirt: +4AC, +5 max dex

Hide: +4 AC, +5 max dex
Scale mail: +5 AC, +4 max dex
chainmail/breastplate: +6 AC, +3 max dex

Banded mail: +7 AC, +2 max dex
Half plate: +8 AC, +1 max dex
Full plate: +9AC, +0 max dex

For years I've kinda disliked the fact that the only 'good' suits of armor in NWN2 (dnd in general) are full plate, breast plate and chain shirt. You build your character to wear one of those three, or none at all, because every other suit is quite literally a worse version of those. (Exception to hide armor for druids, and light armor is actually setup pretty well, though medium and heavy armor are utterly inconsistent with light, which is useful for a variety of builds)

Since this server has already gone a ways in tweaking various classes to be more viable/competitive, I would like to put forward some similar love to be shown to armor, so character builds aren't leaning as hard on hitting those magic dex numbers to optimize their AC.

Just another thought I figured I'd put down during this lul of activity.

[Jhickey]

Solid! I think this makes great sense.

[Doubtful]

The way armour works in D&D in general is just pretty shit. No/minimal dex with full plate and super flexible boiled and reinforced leather? Its like the entire things modelled on ignorance and 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court'.

Personally I'd be more in favour of having the high end armours being as rare and as expensive as they should be. Possibly even as effective.

"Holy shit, is that guy wearing..."

"Damn right bitches, this is full plate. Cost me as much as six of your entire houses and took a small team of people a few months to make, but I'm pretty much impervious to sharp shit, have 95%+ of my maneuverability, fuck I can even do backflips if need be. With a good heater shield my only worries are if you manage to pin me down and stick something sharp through a joint or eye slot, or if you brought a fucking great polearm or hammer to the party, even then you'd better be reasonably good with it. What you guys wearing?".

"Fucking show-off. This season we're rocking chainmail. Sure it's cheap and common as muck, but disrespect not these riveted steel links. Seeing as we're city guards it's downright perfect, can turn aside most of the stuff we're likely to encounter during our job, knifes, shorts words, bottles and almost anything a drunken mob or bunch of farmers can bring to the party. Bit cumbersome though, slops about a bit though."

[Kitsunestume]

Heyos All!

I'll be in agreement with Doubt on this one. heavier armors tend to be. . . well, heavier, and the better stuff is generally more expensive (1500 for basic fullplate, compared to.. . 30 GP for leather?). Unfortunately, with the standard finance paradigm, it takes all of a week to get enough money for a suit of what aught to be custom-fitted armor that takes at least 4 months to make with a crack team of armorsmiths.

I'ld be a serious proponent for heavily increasing the cost for the 'premium' armors, both in terms of monitary cost but also time, effort, and availability.

Considering the Portal-Pass system, I think that we already have relevant scripts to implement at least two things:

Firstly, player-linked items, I.E. having armor that poses a penalty for anyone who it wasn't fitted for (since that seems more reasonable than actually changing the stats of the armor depending on the bearer). Custom Fitted armor usually works better for whoever it was made for, and as a result chafes or otherwise fits badly on other people. Really high quality stuff, like suits of heavy plate armor, are never made without a recipient in mind (or a financier, for that matter).

Secondly, date-linked items: I.E. to buy a suit of armor or a non-standard weapon from a merchant, you would purchase a commission receipt and return at a later date depending on the complexity to get the actual item. Note that presumably common stuff (lamellar, brigantine, and chainmail, the simple and common martial weapons, and so forth) would be available for immediate purchase.

Both would give actual PC crafters a better competition with NPC merchants as well. When the option is paying much more to the PC and waiting the month and a half until they are available, or paying the same to the NPC for five-dozen copies, market forces kick in and the PC gets left out of work.

Also suggested would be including the ability to 'tailor' armors to a different person, also costing time money, and making the armor unavailable for the duration.

Because why make things easy?
I can discuss how I might suggest implementation if any questions are had.
Cheers,
Kit

[Torgar]

Guys, trying to make the game a little more realistic is ok at times, don't get me wrong. But making the tanky people wait up to FOUR MONTHS for armor that, statistically, is only better then lighter armor if you lack a dex, is just flat out punishing the players who choose to play low dex builds. If we did put this in place, we'd just be forcing EVERYONE to build high dex builds, which pigeon-holes builds for anyone intending to play any kind of warrior-type class. I get it, a few of you seem to really want to add that extra step of medieval realism to the game, but....why? Seriously, this is a fantasy game where suspension of disbelief is the primary NAME of the game. Why are we trying so hard to punish the half of us that like heavy armor by thinking of putting on time frames to get the armor, and especially by making the armor's no better at the heavy range then the light range? The whole purpose of full plate in DnD was to reward players willing to put up with both the weight and cost of the armor by allowing them to have a better AC, if just by a little bit. It has ALWAYS been like that. Full plate was always the end all, be all of armors. A high dex rogue could come CLOSE, but at the end of the day, the warriors should ALWAYS win the AC war between the classes. It's all they have, attack bonus and AC. They aren't the most damaging, that goes to rogues. They lack good CC, that goes to casters. They lack healing, goes to clerics. They have either few or no spells depending on being a hybrid class or not, so why are we taking away the one thing they have going for them?

Armor is fine how it is.

[Kaybrie]

I am so sorry I ever brought this up.

[Requiem]

I am so sorry I ever brought this up.

That'll teach you to have ideas and want to contribute!

I actually agree with the idea that it is bizarre that not all armors are created "equal" in the sense that armors within the same class can vary widely in usefulness. I would much prefer the look of the armor be flavor and the effectiveness be a flat stat per tier, just to keep it simple. For the love of all the gods, keeping it simple is so nice. The fact that I need Excel sheets, 5 .pdf references, a journal, and wi-fi access to try and have fun always strikes me as a bit confusing.

Thumbs up to Doubt for the whole "full plate doesn't work that way" bit. Two minutes on Wikipedia reminds us that "A complete suit of plate armour made from well-tempered steel would weigh around 15–25 kg(33-55 pounds).[2] The wearer remained highly agile and could jump, run and otherwise move freely as the weight of the armor was spread evenly throughout the body. The armour was articulated and covered a man's entire body completely from neck to toe." The whole notion of heavy armor making you virtually immobile is what happens when you write a system in the decades before the internet.

[Kitsunestume]

With all due respect, Torgar, I was not suggesting 'nerfing' heavy armor. I've used my share of full-plate and well appreciate its capacities.

For the record, I would support making the more work-intensive items better generally (for example, higher Dex bonuses on Fullplate, as explained by both Doubt and Requiem), but have top-of-the-line equipment less freely available, and am aware that 4-month wait periods is an unrealistic expectation. More like a few days.

That being said, removal of the fatigue system (or simply just the hefty penalties) for crafting would also assist with economic balance, since that is usually a unconsidered issue when discussing item availibility.

[Kaybrie]

That'll teach you to have ideas and want to contribute!

I made this thread more with the intention of putting forward improving the crap armors like scale, chain, banded and half-plate. But it immediately turned into "Full plate needs to be even better then it is right now!"

That just goes to show how neglected those armor's are.

[Torgar]

I do agree that crafting fatigue needs to go away, or at the least be altered. When you can make a single thing and be unable to craft for a month of real time, it really turns you off from crafting. I think what would work out well for the armors is if there were completely different kinds of models for all the different armors. Since at the end of the day, there is only 1-2 points of AC difference, people would be able to pick the armor that has the look they want without really sacrificing their defenses that much. Although, I don't know what the new crafting system will look like, so lets wait and see how it pans out first.

[Kitsunestume]

I made this thread more with the intention of putting forward improving the crap armors like scale, chain, banded and half-plate. But it immediately turned into "Full plate needs to be even better then it is right now!"

That just goes to show how neglected those armor's are.

If all armors have effectively the same 'armor' value, the situation reverses itself: if you can get exactly the same armor-class for less weight, armor-check-penalty, spell-failure chance, and all those other penalties of 'Medium or heavy armor', why learn to use heavy armor in the first place? You would still be 'hitting those magic dex numbers to optimize', but the table is flipped.

As it stands, wearing medium or heavy armor requires either class or feat investment because more protective armors require training. if you can get the same protection value without bothering with the training, I feel that it would undermine the value of the costs.

Likewise, the proportions of armor usage are skewed, at best. As far as I have seen, there are loads of good half-plate around the server of various flavors, but there is no reason to use it when full-plate exists for two-and-a-half times the price. Reasoning as to why scale, chain, banded, and half plate were used was because it was cheap, and relatively easy to prepare for large numbers without any fitting - IE high availability over the superior armor's low availability. As soon as an item ends up in an NPC store, almost regardless of the price, the item availability becomes 'effectively infinite', since money can and will be farmed by whoever desperately wants it.

If it's just a matter of throwing money at the best equipment available, the reasons for having a variety of gear becomes moot. I'd also suggest having heavier armors have marginally better AC than lower tiers (due to the feat requirements), and that the highest armor in each tier be equal to the lowest in the next tier, but that's how armor already works, but with the best armors are just as available as the worse ones, leaving no reason whatsoever to actually take anything less than the best. Which is what I think is the issue here.

[Doubtful]

Guys, trying to make the game a little more realistic is ok at times, don't get me wrong. ... I get it, a few of you seem to really want to add that extra step of medieval realism to the game, but....why? Seriously, this is a fantasy game where suspension of disbelief is the primary NAME of the game.

First, I should probably clarify my position. Much like my views on Perma-Death there's a gulf of distance between what I like or would like to see, and what I believe is best implemented on the server, and much like my last post on that I think much of the issue is the nature of playing games vs an intimate PnP style setup.

In a non-Sundren/NWN/D&D setting I'd love to see armour being properly scary. Where facing an armoured opponant without considering exactly what you're wearing, what weapons your using and what approach you're going to take is pretty much suicide. But NWN/D&D isn't that game and trying to force it to be anything other than a 'hit each other with whatever till someones numbers reach zero' affair isn't going to end well.

As for why. Why anything really? We all have different tastes as to what we enjoy. I love spicy food, my wife less so, a couple of our friends can't stand even a hint of paprika but others think a phall is pleasant. Same goes for my fantasy, I like it grounded and realistic, full of blood, sweat, tears and human failings. Others prefer high fantasy to be Disney tinged sparkly greatness. Good for everyone, we like what we like.

I am so sorry I ever brought this up.

Don't be, it's an interesting topic.

I made this thread more with the intention of putting forward improving the crap armors like scale, chain, banded and half-plate. But it immediately turned into "Full plate needs to be even better then it is right now!"

That just goes to show how neglected those armor's are.

Full plate, in fact pretty much all armour, should be better than how it is represented in D&D - I think that's a fair summary of my first post.

If we were to make adjustments to the role of armours within the game my initial feeling is that they'd need to be social / economic changes, rather than stat adjustments.

For instance...
Full plate should be rare and expensive, something custom made for and worn by the rich and the elite. Stores can do that, as can the adjusted crafting system.
Worn By: Nobles, Generals and other senior officers and the very rich.

Half-Plate, let's assume that's munitions armour. Cheaper, mass produced for armies but doesn't fit as well as full plate and is much heavier. Still going to be rarish and costly on the public markets so again, stores and crafting. Likely to be the heaviest armour people can afford for a while though.
Worn By: Higher ranking / richer professional soldiers and officers.

Banded and splint? Older and outdated armour types that tend to be only in service due to (past) fashions or simply because the quartermaster got a job lot cheaply. As a result these are an easy and cheap first foray into the world of Heavy Armour.
Worn By: The budget conscious warrior, traditionalist mercenary outfits, employees of cheapskates who want that 'Heavy armour of yesteryear' vibe.

and so on through the other armour types.

The intention would be to have the armours represent a station and employment position in the world. Possibly backed up by most of the settlements requesting visitors not go around looking like they're ready to slaughter the population.

Anyway, just thoughts.

[Kaybrie]

If all armors have effectively the same 'armor' value, the situation reverses itself: if you can get exactly the same armor-class for less weight, armor-check-penalty, spell-failure chance, and all those other penalties of 'Medium or heavy armor', why learn to use heavy armor in the first place? You would still be 'hitting those magic dex numbers to optimize', but the table is flipped.

As in my original post, I divert your attention to light armors, where players don't try to force their dex to hit the smallest armor possible (unless their build already is pushing for max dex) They pick what armor is appropriate for their dex amount, and that's it, they're willing and able to change armor's if they get an increase to dex or otherwise change. You'll see chain shirts, studded leather, leather, and padded all seeing use in the light tier, because they're all useful.

Doubtful, while that would be nice in a way, that's also weeks worth of work added onto the staff's already substantial load. I am eager to get back into RP on sundren, hence why my original suggestion is a simple, and small number tweak, rather then a sweeping call for system changes. You would need to alter shops, crafting, and gold on monster drops. Which is a noble goal in the longrun, but if this didn't happen before the re-release, it wouldn't mean anything, as everyone will have full plate available within the first 3-4 levels anyways. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea... I just know people are impatient for info/the release as things are.

[Kitsunestume]

As in my original post, I divert your attention to light armors, where players don't try to force their dex to hit the smallest armor possible (unless their build already is pushing for max dex)

Running with a minimum 18+ (+4) dexterity for the lowest dex-bonus light armor suggests that you are pushing max dex, or that it is at least a significant statistical investment.

As a counterpoint to my own prior argument, you also see all the light armors being used because only Breastplate and Full-plate can actually match or surpass the light armors for total AC.
Light armors and Breastplate get +8 total AC from armor and Dex, Padded and Fullplate get +9, Splint Mail gets +6, and all other armors get +7. Light armor as a category is a superior defense solution.

Which makes Medium Armor Proficiency even more weird: "I will train hard so I can be five percent easier to hit be more hampered, or expend both training and more funds to be hit just as much and still be more hampered."

[Kaybrie]

When you account for item bonuses you can get to dex, or races with a dex bonus (elves) you can pretty easy be pushing the upper dex limits without having a substantial investment. (Bards and Rangers come to mind as the best class examples of this. Though I could make an argument for sorcerer with Cat's Grace on sundren as well.)

And yeah, that's more or less the point I'm getting at, I don't even necessarily feel like all armor HAS to be equal, but it would be nice to see the 7 total bonus armor's bumped up to 8 so it's not so crippling to make use of them.

Medium armor in general I feel is the most odd in that sense, because you can't even say with certainty that a breast plate flat out offered better protection/mobility then scale or chain mail. They all had their uses. At least with heavy armor Full plate is supposed to be the 'capstone' armor.

But again, I'd like to see those armor sets with a total of a 7 bonus bumped up at least to 8, 9 in a perfect world. But at a total bonus of 8 we might start to see alternative armor's used. Especially when it comes to the medium armor lineup.