Modification to PvP Consent

[roguethree]

-"Buffing" or preparing for battle is considered a hostile action. Should a possible opponent begin buffing, you may immediately flag them hostile and begin PvP, bypassing any need for making them aware of impending attacks.

What about opponents who show up buffed?

[Doubtful]

Surely that's already covered by the "Buffing" or preparing for battle.

That they've done the buffing elsewhere is irrelevant, they've still prepared for battle and arrived kitted out for hostility. It's down to RP from there to deescalate the situation (if required).

[Snowmane]

I still believe this rule is a slippery slope. What if someone shows up already wearing armor? A fighter wearing armor is no different than a caster walking around with stoneskin or the like. For some reason when a caster walks around prepared, it's considered hostile. But when a martial character walks around prepared it's considered normal.

It's down to RP from there to deescalate the situation (if required).

The point of that rule is there is no requirement to RP. The rule states you can go straight to killing with no warning or communication IC or OOC.

Anyway, just my 2 coppers. I'll shut up now.

[roguethree]

Surely that's already covered by the "Buffing" or preparing for battle.

It's not covered the way it's written.

What if someone shows up already wearing armor?

Apples and oranges, but I would agree that "how buffed is too buffed?" is difficult to determine. However, when a faction enemy shows up buffed to the gills, it's not a stretch to assume the worst, right?

[Peridan]

I think the rule needs to be looked at in the context of the RP situation it was meant for. The point of the rule is to prevent a player from being outbuffed or to wait while an enemy throws up wards after initial RP establishing hostility has taken place. It wouldn't make sense to simply let him do that at the point where the RP has identified the buffing party as a hostile enemy.

If an already buffed PC shows up, you simply do not know if that PC is going to be hostile or not. Sure, they might be a hostile faction. But that doesn't mean the need for RP leading up to a PvP situation is somehow negated. Where the rule is concerned, you're already past the point of the needed RP before a PvP, unlike this proposed second scenario where they show up buffed.

[Doubtful]

Hmm.. True.

On consideration I'd expect some RP to take place before an attack on a newly buffed arrival, just as I'd expect a newly buffed arrival to engage in RP before starting hammering people.

I'd definitely say it's something that would make for tense situations. Wandering in buffed isn't like wandering in just wearing armour, more like wandering in wearing armour, helmet (visor down) with a shield out and sword drawn - It is an overtly aggressive and intimidating action, though perhaps not an actively hostile one.

Eric and Ted are sitting around having a calming drink and some food after a day of horror and grimness at the rainbow mines. All of a sudden Bob arrives, dressed in badassery and having called upon mighty powers to distort reality and reshape the world to his will.

"Bugger" says Eric, standing and drawing his sword "To call upon such dread powers as those this man must have a terrible agenda! Quick, Ted. Run to the Kitten Factory for help, I'll hold him as best I'm able"

"Righty-ho!" squeaks Ted as he throws his jam sandwich aside and flees "Magic users give me the wilis and I really don't like vengeful ghosts!"

"Hold there sorcerer!" Eric waves his sword about like he saw a man do once in a play, it looked quite good on stage "What are you about sir that you might roam these lands bedecked in arcane energies, jacketed in undulating energy, wearing the velvety hose of raw power and cloaked in shades of magical mystery?"

"Uh, what?" Intones Bob "I was just out for a stroll. I get all scared about leaving my house without drawing on energies beyond the power of mortal men, the mightiest powers of the gods are what enable me to go to the shops and the deepest secrets of the most dread eldritch tomes are what allow me to go for a stroll in the rain. Daily I call upon all the power of Magical Mystra and distort the weave and world itself so as not to sully my shoes."

"Wanker." Spits Eric, despairing once more at the sheer banal idiocy of humanity.

[Snowmane]

However, when a faction enemy shows up buffed to the gills, it's not a stretch to assume the worst, right?

Agreed.

[roguethree]

Peridan: We might disagree on the intent of the rule, then. You're arguing that casting a spell can be taken as a hostile action, I'm arguing that already having cast spells can be taken the same way. It's preparing v. arriving prepared.

[Peridan]

Well, the rule states as such, doesn't it?

"preparing for battle is considered a hostile action"

What you're proposing isn't a modification, but an entirely new rule. And I'd suggest that such a rule would go against the need for RP before PvP, or a

need for making them aware of impending attacks

[roguethree]

It's only a new rule if you restrict the timeline for "preparing for battle" to the specific moment preceding PvP. I would suggest a rephrasing:

Should a possible opponent begin buffing

to

Should a possible opponent already be buffed or begin buffing

Further,

bypassing any need for making them aware of impending attacks

isn't defined anywhere. An assassin has no obligation to send a tell to his hostile target stating, "Stand by for stabbing." If the Black Hand Brigade shows up at a "neutral" site glowing with the power of Bane, I'm arguing that many neutral and good parties are within their rights to shoot first.

[Doubtful]

My concern is that by modifying the current rule you'd be effectively legitimizing the notion of turning up fully buffed in order to roflstomp sites. Encouraging people to turn up fully buffed and ready to fight expecting the person they're targeting to toggle hostile and get whupped.

[Peridan]

I'd say that the rule is specifically meant for that brief period of time before PvP, because it doesn't say anything about a timeline beforehand. It's very much set in the present, immediate sense.

And while "bypassing any need..." isn't defined anywhere, a former DM has stated thusly:

...

3. When someone flags you hostile, that's your warning that something could go down.

4. There are several clues that someone is about to hit you, like drinking potions, casting spells, using abilities, HiPS'ing, running toward you, drawing a weapon, and so on. Those are contextual aggression that you are allowed and expected to react to.

That "contextual aggression" is what we're talking about. Not assassinations, which aren't governed as strongly by the rules as set forth.

While neutral and good parties are able to strike first, I don't think it's an onerous burden to make them RP beforehand. The Black Hand has been very civil, and very open about RP'ing situations before they come to violence. I think the institution of such a rule that you propose would be a slippery slope into PvP-induced stupidity.

We're all here to have fun through RP, not smacking one another down like any number of other MMORPG's. I think the rules should reflect that.

[Kirin]

I have a concern about where we draw the line when defining "buffing". Nadya almost always has Longstrider cast on herself, because it's convinient. Is that pvp consent? What if it was Longstrider, and bull's strength?

Where do we draw the line? And can we get upset if other people interpret what "buffs" are hostile differently? I might use bulls because I am carrying a lot of junk, but it also has a pvp use.

Just something to consider.

(And yes, Nadya is technically perma-pvp-consent due to race, but that doesn't apply to others acting in the same way so that shouldn't be relevant to the debate!)

[Kitsunestume]

Good day, all,

I hope no-one minds if I interject an observation of my own, that would potentially be impacted by any resolution here.

While the context of this discussion is considering PVP, I feel that it is likely to impact and be impacted by the more casual PVE portions of play.

Whilst Doubt's example is in the extreme, it is not unreasonable nor unheard of for characters to be (fighting orcs and stuff around Mossdale || murdering possessed people in Argyle || simply attempting to avoid being roflstomed by Atmosphere's epic-killing-bandits anywhere that a road exists) before heading to an RP-zone like the Second Wind Inn. After all, the wiki effectively states that anything not being ACTIVELY patrolled is basically hostile road, and the Second Wind is literally hours at a flat run from the nearest city.

As I understand history, it was policy back when the rest system was revamped to remove the majority of rest-areas outside of RP areas, particularly those that would allow for rotating-door-grindfests (I.E., all the ones near exploration areas). As a result, these characters who were out expeditioning are by-and-large likely to appear at an area with people in it while fully buffed for combat.

My concern is that someone who has had aggressions with such a person in the past may, if buffs are automatically taken as hostile intent, decide that such a character is out to get them and strike accordingly as simply by returning with buffs the new-arrival has consented to PVP.

[Kirin]

You see what you've done, roguethree?