Gear Rebalancing

[nezzerscape]

I wanted to pull this out of another thread and formally put it in at a suggestion so that others can chime in and not dilute the origination thread...

After being on hiatus for a few years (OMG was it that long!), when I came back I was astounded at the equipment that could be purchased. It made me sad for toons that class could not make full use of their faction's gear and yes it made me think about building a toon around the gear available (not the best way for character concept).

I have some ideas around this for during my hiatus I have been playing non-stop on other servers (dodges boot). As opposed to having all the pre-made gear, have new recipes that require a faction (or alignment or class) to use. We already have the ability to restrict the use of items on a faction basis.

Here is an example. A recipe for adding +3 to hide can only be used by the EP or BH. This would promote RP for the Legion’s scouts would need to seek out the aid of the EB. It would help for more to be involved in crafting (do not care what you think - it is the best system I have ever seen!). It would also not cripple the current established crafters. They would still be needed for the feats, spells, etc.

Thank you.

Nez

[Lotus]

We're moving away from faction-dictated gear (e.g., "If you want to be good at stealth, you have to join the Ebon Coin for the gear"). Faction stores will still be somewhat thematic when it comes to what recipes they sell, but we're looking to make all of the viable recipes either available in the loot tables or as quest rewards.

[nezzerscape]

Also, because some of the great has many enchantments baked in, perhaps some crafting enchantments become broader in scope. Using my example above, a stealthy toon would want to boost both hide and MS, instead of having 2 enchantment slots taken for this, (one of +3 hides an done of +3 MS) have it add both or the "Stealthy" feat if mechanically not possible.

[Lotus]

We're definitely not going to add feats to gear if we can help it; feats should represent a character's training and choices, and feats on items have never sat well with me.

As skill bonuses go, we're going to look to curb those, too. The current climate forces a gear-based approach to character building, and that's difficult to maintain balance for. Basically, one faction is great at sneaking, one faction is great at spotting the sneakers, and the rest are helpless bystanders in that interaction. As to your suggestion for packaging properties into single enchantment recipes, the enchantment system limits items to three properties; even if a single recipe grants both hide and move silently, those two properties still count as two properties. We like this balance and plan to maintain it.

[nezzerscape]

I agree with your comment on feats. It was a suggestion to get around the 3 enchantment limit.

I also like the curbing of skill bonuses. I have seen armor/boots combinations that make me wonder way I put all those points into climbing.

I also understand the "climate" as you have stated. While IMO I feel select groups should have (better gear) that is oriented towards that group it should not be limited to that group. Not sure the best approach other that my first recommendation of having recipes that require a faction membership to use. If recipes are only offered at faction store but its use is not limited to that faction, then they will soon spread and anyone can walk up to a well known crafter and say I would like "__________________".

A second possibility along these lines is to limit the recipes to classes (or class levels). That what a Legion Ranger could create or air in the creation of "+2 MS boots". The justification is that a 12 level ranger would have learned what is needed to make things quit.

I hope this does not come a crossed as a tit-for-tat dialog. I'm trying to think of ideas that the smart people might have missed.

Not a staff member but trying to help shape things where I can.
Nez

[Kitsunestume]

DISCLAIMER: Apparently in the hour and a half I spent writing this Lotus already probably got to the main point, but I figured I might post it anyhow, having put in the effort.

While understand the intent and where you are coming from, I can see a few issues with implementing a faction-restricted crafting mechanic.

From the mechanical standpoint, the Shadow enchantment requires Invisibility of Caster-Level 5 of higher. The P&P system (and as a result, our ingame crafting system) already limits enhancements and items to particular classes and builds by virtue of the spell and CL-Check requirement, or to characters with invested skill required to meet skill-checks. The Shadow enchantment is effectively limited to Sorcerers, Wizards, Bards, and Clerics of the Trickery domain (the people who get invisibility). However, this doesn't address the other potential mechanisms of enchanting using Camouflage: a staple of Rangers and Druids who may also wish to be unseen, but their spell allows for far cheaper utility at greater magnitude than the related enchantment. If its a mundane augmentation, there really isn't any reason as to why someone trained in that type of thing can't do it( (painting armor black and padding the joints can be done by almost anyone).

From an in-world perspective, political affiliation is by far the most abstract and nebulous of the defining traits for a character, at least as far as the world itself is concerned. Alignment and divine-association are - in-universe - far more concrete and carry greater impact than simple words or loyalty (usually), and though unlikely there remains the opportunity for espionage. As has been demonstrated numerous times in our own reality, if a competing organization gets their hands on a blueprint or finished item, they can often back-engineer to provide the same item for cheaper as they did not need to invest in research or development and thereby drive the original manufacturer into poverty.

Restricting a blueprint to a given faction would likely only be effective if that blueprint required intrinsic property of knowledge held by that faction. If the Shadow enchantment required the divine blessing of a priest of Shar, the Eboncoin would indeed hold the greatest claim to the schema, but abstract politics would not be the limiting factor. Similarly a physical costly device could also be the catalyst, such as a properly prepared laboratory, portal, or similar mechanism. Lastly, given the interactions between characters, an NPC may have knowledge of the requisite pattern and is only willing to offer their skills (or talk to) to said faction. While it would not theoretically prevent parallel research into the recipe in question, it would certainly ensure faction-aligned patterns better than a parchemnt that can be lost/stolen/'misplaced', at the cost of mitigating the crafters themselves.
If I recall correctly, Poltergeist (before he moved his business elsewhere) was looking into a system similar to the latter option, in conjunction with the item-recharging mechanics, so we might have some material for that already completed to some degree. I believe his system involved interaction with an NPC or crafting device to pick-and-chose enhancements in exchange for physical or abstract tokens, with some discount to individuals who could feasibly craft the enhancement themselves. Whether is is going to be developed further is entirely up to the current staff.

[Lotus]

If recipes are only offered at faction store but its use is not limited to that faction, then they will soon spread and anyone can walk up to a well known crafter and say I would like "__________________"

This has actually been in place in the past, and it leads to the problem inherent in PCs populating certain factions and not others. We want everything to be accessible, even if the effort put into that access isn't equal across the board.

What you'll see, for example, is stealth recipes in the Black Tax store and not, say, in the Triumvirate store. However, stealth recipes will drop in the loot tables (or perhaps even be given as a quest reward), so Triadic types who want to be stealthy won't be without options.

Faction gear is also going to mirror the limits of what's possible in the crafting system, so non-factioned characters won't be disadvantaged from a potential-power standpoint; they'll just lean on the loot tables and PC crafters more than a factioned PC will need to.

Whether is is going to be developed further is entirely up to the current staff.

That particular system is dead and will not be further developed, and with our upcoming projects, it won't be necessary, anyway.

[Snowmane]

Faction gear is also going to mirror the limits of what's possible in the crafting system, so non-factioned characters won't be disadvantaged from a potential-power standpoint; they'll just lean on the loot tables and PC crafters more than a factioned PC will need to.

I like this. My elven EK Minael is a crafter and due to his history and developments in-game, it would be out of character for him to actually join a supported faction (even though he has earned enough rep with the Arbiter's alliance to be a mid-rank faction member). So he has been unable to really hold his own with other characters that are in supported factions - especially in the realm of crafting. I am glad that players will have the freedom to have character concepts that fall outside the limits of factions and not have those characters feel like second-class citizens. (Though I suspect things will still be a little harder for them, but not insurmountably so).

[ManUtd4Ever]

I've always liked the crafting system. I had a character that amassed significant wealth because he mastered it. The draw back to that system had always been the availability of materials needed to execute the recipes, enchantments, etc. What I am hearing is that Lotus will make those materials available via loot drops or in-stores in the future. This is great news and I applaud all of the staff's efforts.

If you have not been on the server for a while - then out of respect for those of us who have never left - spend a little bit of time back in game before you comment on changes. I know everyone who plays on Sundren only wants to see the server survive and grow. We all appreciate that. But settle back in first before recommending mechanical changes based solely on the fact gear or classes have changed since you last logged in.

I say this because the server has evolved. But I submit the evolution is more likely in response to events /forum posts that have occurred on the server/forum in the last 3, 6 or 12 months... the ebb and flow of our player population, class changes and the resulting Pathfinder influences, story lines and plots advancing, etc. all of these have caused the staff to make tweaks.

If Lotus is willing to rebalance the server... great! IMO we owe him an informed view.

Cheers!

[Peridan]

That, and the staff knows more about gear balance than any player will ever know. I'd put money on them looking at all angles, and with all things considered.

[Lotus]

We're so smart; that's why we have to do it twice.

[nezzerscape]

If you have not been on the server for a while - then out of respect for those of us who have never left - spend a little bit of time back in game before you comment on changes.

I apologize for making a suggestion so early in my return. If someone can provide me with what constitutes "little bit of time", I will refrain from commenting till then.

Cheers!

[Lotus]

All suggestions are welcomed. Chill, my peoples.

[Mournas]

We're definitely not going to add feats to gear if we can help it; feats should represent a character's training and choices, and feats on items have never sat well with me.

As far as gear balancing goes, I would have to agree with Lotus, feats on gear just doesn't sit right. You start making build choices based around gear. Not everyone is guilty of this but I can tell you that if someone sees a free feat they're likely to take advantage. I know I am guilty of it. That brings up an unrelated topic about bonus feats and cap stones (some classes get 7-8 feats and no real cap stone and others get 18-19 feats with a bad ass capstone). That's not related to gear however so that can be talked about on another post.

That, and the staff knows more about gear balance than any player will ever know. I'd put money on them looking at all angles, and with all things considered.

While I agree with you that they likely see a larger picture, you stating that here on a suggestions thread would suggest otherwise. That being said, I think that the gear isn't over powered or in need of much balancing. However, it would be a huge and awesome change to make non faction gear that is comparable to faction gear.

[DM Inquisition]

I am sure that Peridan did not mean to insinuate that the staff feels that we know more then the player base does, which would insinuate that we won't give your idea's and opinions much weight. The thread was made with the purpose of getting ideas from other angles, from people that might have more hands-on experience with gear of a particular faction or build, so that the staff can have a much clearer picture when the gear gets retooled as to how it can be tweaked as to be optimal without leaning towards specific builds. The staff will always give weight and consideration to the feelings and opinions of the player base, since most of us, including myself, were and are still players on the server. We have more responsibilities, but we're just in this to have fun and make our server the best it can be, just like the player base.