Raise dead scrolls

[Clutch]

I think there are so many other things in the world that should be worked on before playing around with Raise Dead and its costs or penalties. Truthfully, it ain't broke, so don't fix it, is how I look at it.
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Its not about it being not broken. Its about a bit of realism. We dont want the dungeons to be incredible easy to survive in. Personally I really want you to fear the damn high level dungeons, such as the necropolis since it's a bastion of death. But right now every farmer Joe can raise his freshly slain comrads and walsh through almost every area.

As far as I know we're not going permadeath ever ? So.. no point argueing about that.

Death is something you should be carefull off, not threat it like a small obstacle. You die, you're fucked. Of course you can die of lag and stuff, but that always happens. It's not a reason not to make death a issue ingame.

[Felnak]

Its not about it being not broken. Its about a bit of realism. We dont want the dungeons to be incredible easy to survive in. Personally I really want you to fear the damn high level dungeons, such as the necropolis since it's a bastion of death. But right now every farmer Joe can raise his freshly slain comrads and walsh through almost every area.

As far as I know we're not going permadeath ever ? So.. no point argueing about that.

Death is something you should be carefull off, not threat it like a small obstacle. You die, you're fucked. Of course you can die of lag and stuff, but that always happens. It's not a reason not to make death a issue ingame.

Players should fear the high level dungeons. However, after the difficulty was decreased, the Necropolis could be worked with minimal fear of death. Frequently, a 2 or 3 character party can easily survive the majority or all of the Necropolis. Of course, people were probably complaining that the Necropolis was too difficult, but now I say it is too easy. Oh well.

[Eternal Serf]

Does getting your character killed prove the difficulty of a dungeon or area? Thats a rather harsh test if you ask me. I try to avoid character death as much as possible, just on principal, but to those that don't care about dying then I don't know what the designers could do that would be both balanced and fun. One or the other is going to have to be trimmed.

As to realism..I'm sorry but NWN2 and the 3.5 gaming system are not in any way shape or form realistic! They are simplified in some areas and overcomplicated in others because they are not meant to be a simulation of real life (heck or even fantasy life) but a game system to tell a story. As to Sundren its supposed to be a Roleplaying style of PW where folks attempt to tell or add to stories (at least thats how I look at it), sort of like a constantly evolving story.

Sure death is a part of the 'fear' factor in games, but perhaps with the advent of another bleeding/dying/respawning system we could see some different styles of playing, but until then I think we should keep the status quo, or perhaps think about scaled encounters for some areas...

[Zoberraz]

I think the necropolis survived the test of time fairly well. I remember being level 11 when it was introduced and it was a deathtrap with challenges many were helpless against.

Now, at level 15, the necropolis remains daunting. I know Maia somehow manages to beat the first set of bloodhulks as destroy the occupants of the first room... but by then she's a battered wreck with a lot of the resource she usually carries around being expended.

However, when I went with Nemesis today, it was a different situation. The necropolis has corridors and chokepoints that allows for a person to stand her ground and seal the entryway, allowing for anyone with ranged attacks to remain clear and attack from there. As long as we were well positioned, I could focus on delivering damage with my bow instead of worrying about someone lopping my head off.

That didn't stop us from having close calls (mainly on Nemesis' part, seeing she's the tank) but we managed. If one of us fell, the likeliness was that the other would follow up pretty soon. The sacrificial chamber is especially difficult for Maia because there is no place to hide and that the enemies are on top of you as soon as you come in (I've always had some difficulties with the walkmesh at the entry - I tend to get stuck and that certainly doesn't help Maia's odds of survival) - if Nemesis wouldn't have switched priority to covering Maia's back, the homicidal elf chick would've probably have died.

At some point, I remember Benush saying he had to go eat and that he'd be back in 15 minutes. Maia stood there and halted, just outside the entrance of the sacrificial chamber - not daring to move or attack the chamber with the altar. Apparently, I got some attention from DM Darkwood and some of those began moving on me so I tried to hold them off - until Nemesis made a miraculous appearance and saved Maia's butt. That hardly dispelled the "Oh shit I'm gonna die" impression beforehand, though.

...so, yeah, I consider anyplace that was terrifying around level 12 and which still seems daunting at level 15 to be plenty tough. If you have a party of four level 14-15 characters going through that and having a good showing of themselves... that ought to be normal.

Heck, I'm wary of going alone in the Stonegrab Lair! If those ogres manage to gang up on Maia, she might die even if I do my damnable best not to.

[Poor_Otis]

I would agree that death should have more of an impact, either on experience loss or stag loss, but only AFTER the issues with multiplayer NWN have been addressed and corrected.

I used to play on a NWN I server that, if you died, raise dead would bring you back at the midpoint of the previous level and resurrection would bring you back at the beginning of your existing level. Respawning equated to raise dead as I recall. I know this server does not want such severe penalties for death, but I'm just saying, the penalties are minimal at worst here as they stand. IMO of course. You may be used to a lesser penalty.

Anyway, I think dying here is a mere inconvenience, which may be how the developers want it to be. I'd like to see folks be more afraid - it contributes to developing better tactics and strategy for fights, rather than just seeing everyone rush ahead and slaughter. It's the same logic for having rest restrictions - casters need to be conservative and aware of tactics and strategy when casting if they can't just rest whenever they want to reload.

And, when faacing combat situations, without the fear of death, where is the thrill of survival?

[Pycroft]

...

When talking about the ease of the Necropolis, and realism, I come back to a post I made a few weeks back (And am only bringing it back up because I don't think any DM's responded, just players). That is...it's easy because everyone knows what's coming. We all metagame in that way...we know that when we enter the steps to the second level, 3 demns will spawn. We know how many vampires are in the next room so we can prepare spells. We know safe spots to rest, etc. It would be cool (Although I'm not sure, practical) to have random spawn points, or random amounts. Imagine you were soloing the necropolis as a level 14-15 character, and when you thought 4 vampires would show up, 8 did. Certainly, if we also talk about realism, nobody would know how many, or what exactly would show up when you go up stairs. I have yet to see (Not from myself either) someone get nervous going up the stairs, because they know out of game what's coming and they're prepared for it.

In the perfect world: Random spawn points with random monsters to create unpredictability.

Perhaps more feasible: Random number of monsters to spawn.

Definitily going to happen: Sleep...SOON.

Good eve all-

Pycroft
Ewan Rice (Jasper)

[GodBeastX]

*Adds the post to the other 10 requests for randomness in dungeons*

Wish I had the diablo 2 engine...

[valenator]

I've seen it done, GBX. It was coded such that spawns were on a timer and not dependent on PC presence. To a given spawn, you'd assign, say 3 types of goblins. Let's say a total of 3 goblins A, 3 goblins B, and 3 goblins C could spawn at a given location.

Each goblin, at the given spawn time, would 'roll' a %. Goblins that met their assigned percentage would spawn. Those that didn't, wouldn't. Say each goblin A had a 70% chance to spawn, each B had a 40%, and each C had a 20%. In this scenario, 0-9 goblins could spawn at a given time. The tables were unique to each given spawn time, and more goblins with higher percentages were possible during the night hours.

I'm guessing this could be scripted to be dependent on a PC Trigger, but I don't know how difficult the scripting itself is.

[Eternal Serf]

How about using NESS, you can create some scaled spawns and some random ones, you can also have groups of spawned critters patroling an area....and they only activate when a player is in the area, otherwise they are off.

They've got it working for NWN2! I've played around a bit with it and it is functioning.

[Lanemeyer]

talking that way then, it should be like this everywhere, but seems isn't that easy to do it.

[Esteten]

has this been fixed or is it worth taking up the discussion again?
I'd say that the scrolls would be cleric/paladin only, and damn hard to use with UMD. The price could be raised aswell, but with the restrictions that would only make it harder on lower levels.

Just my thought

[Felnak]

Sure, relegating raise dead scrolls to clerics and paladins works great in pen and paper game. I also prefer this method of handling raise dead scrolls. However, these online games are a whole different matter. These characters are all designed to play solo... they suffer from a lack of dependence on other party members and only marginally integrate and compliment each other. Some considerations get brushed by since this is a RP server... like balanced groups rarely form up... that is just not an RP thing. Clerics are not readily available and server population is low. Ultimately, most dead characters would just lie there or release.

[Esteten]

that would scare people from dying, and be more careful, wouldn't it?
Death is a terrbile thing, and rescurettion is something that purges your soul, eating it a little by little each time.. Does that sound like heaven then tell me! I'll gladly kill someone and rescurret him all over again and again ^^

The point is. Death should be fatal, and when the server get more steady, there'll hopefully be plenty of people around, and since clerics is quite the class to solo with, and qutie the class to do everything with, they'll probably show up sometime. I mean the most imba on nwn1 was dwarven cleric or cleric/monk, wasn't it?

[Machiavelli]

Death is a terrbile thing, and rescurettion is something that purges your soul, eating it a little by little each time..

Woot! Lets go back to 1st ed rules... get raised, lose 1 constitution permanently! Ummmm, then again maybe not

[Esteten]

haha we could do that, but I also hate that -1 con thing, so.. errr.. No!