Fewer Skills, More Options

[cmosier]

I remember when Sundren first put in all the 3.5 Skills. However, with the new lean toward Pathfinder, is there any thought about reversing that. Pathfinder consolidated a lot of the skills, and I think this was a good idea (unlike changing hit points... which I loathed... a wizard with a d6... how silly... sorry... back to it). Is there any talk about making Hide and Move Silently into Stealth or Spot and Listen into Perception? Perhaps having Balance with Tumble?

Or is it a coding thing that is way past my understanding?

[wangxiuming]

I would not mind this. Although I think the skill point boosts most classes have gotten help a lot with being able to invest in RP skills without crippling your character too badly.

[Doubtful]

The mechanics of stealth are hardcoded, we couldn't consolidate those skills.

[cmosier]

I would not mind this. Although I think the skill point boosts most classes have gotten help a lot with being able to invest in RP skills without crippling your character too badly.

That was going to be another request, the +1 Skill point. I never took the Hit Point. Who would?

[cmosier]

The mechanics of stealth are hardcoded, we couldn't consolidate those skills.

Is that both Stealth and the skills used to detect Stealth?

[Lothoir]

The mechanics of stealth are hardcoded, we couldn't consolidate those skills.

Make a new skill called Stealth, while keeping Hide and Move Silently in game, but unavailable for any class to put points in (similar to how Perform can't be taken by non bards in vanilla NWN2).

Use a LevelUp script to check for the number of ranks in Stealth, and then set Hide/MS to that number. Items will continue to work, because they'll affect the Hide/MS skill which technically still exists.

The same can be done for Spot/Listen (Perception).

[Mournas]

I would not mind this. Although I think the skill point boosts most classes have gotten help a lot with being able to invest in RP skills without crippling your character too badly.

I think the issue is people are blinded by the high numbers some people have in many of the skills. I would say that a person with a 10-15 in a skill could make a fairly decent living off of it. Remember a Skill DC of 30 is considered heroic in scope. Not everything has to be a massive DC, even if that's what we are used to.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

[MarsunCymber]

I agree about the DCs. I realize there needs to be a level of challenge involved, but seeing so many DCs that are so high doesn't make sense.

[cmosier]

I agree about the DCs. I realize there needs to be a level of challenge involved, but seeing so many DCs that are so high doesn't make sense.

The DCs are high because the Skills are so high. Some borderline ridiculous.

[OnyxTigress]

The DCs are high because the Skills are so high. Some borderline ridiculous.

A lot of that is due to the amount of skill boosts that are offered on items.

[Kitsunestume]

A lot of that is due to the amount of skill boosts that are offered on items.

Well, more to the point, Skill bonuses from items in NWN2 are untyped and thus stack. With P&P, just about every bonus is typed, and rarely stacks with itself. EX: Ring of Hiding(+6 competence to hide) + Cloak of Elvenkind(+5 competence to hide) in NWN2 is a +11 bonus(+17 if you have 2 rings), but both are competence bonuses and should not additively combine: only the most potent effect remains (resulting in a +6 total in P&P). So there is a significantly greater motivation in NWN2 to get a bunch of items that improve exactly one thing really well, instead of a bunch of different items that boost different skills a decent amount.

[Fuzziebunny]

I am not sure what stupid high means. Is it like everything over 30? Over 40? You are talking about peeps who have unnatural str and the minds of supper computers. I think big numbers is fine here and there provided there is good RP to go with it.

[Doubtful]

Skills are the biggest issue with stacking, not stats (although they can be silly).

It's a bit silly when you've got skills approaching 80-90.

Doing away with all skill based items might work, though it would be a shame. Ideally we'd be able to prevent skills from stacking as they currently do, but how to acheive that within the constraints of the game engine is another matter (and would most likely involve a lot of coding work which we simply don't have the staff hours to do!)

[Kitsunestume]

I am not sure what stupid high means. Is it like everything over 30? Over 40? You are talking about peeps who have unnatural str and the minds of supper computers. I think big numbers is fine here and there provided there is good RP to go with it.

Skills are the biggest issue with stacking, not stats (although they can be silly).

It's a bit silly when you've got skills approaching 80-90.

To illustrate the point, Fuzzie, the Stealth/Detection arms race comes to mind. Due to how hide/MS and spot/listen are handled, the hiding person needs a modifier at LEAST 20 above the watcher's detection scores if they wish to remain unnoticed for longer than two minutes (one detection check per round, statistically the hidden will roll a '1' and watcher will roll a '20' within 2 minutes, though not necessarily at the same time), at which point the watcher will never find them (as a 'natural 1' is not automatic failure with a skill, and a 'natural 20' is not automatic success ∴ someone with a 20 hide [min. roll 21] will always beat someone with 0 spot [max. roll 20]). This basically chops the scores down into ranges of 20 modifier:

• You have normal people (with modifiers below 20);
• The reasonably-effective-vs-normals group with +20 to +40 who can usually stay hidden from normals if they remain within visible map only briefly;
• The in-practice-undetectable group from +40- to +60-modifyer who are ACTUALLY hidden from anyone in the normals group, but risk getting seen by a second-tier watcher if they hang about;
• And the utterly-rediculous-but-usually-effective modifiers for hiding which are above +60, which is required not to get seen by most ranger-types, but can still be detected by dedicated watcher builds.

There are other problems with the particulars of Stealth and Detection, but the discussion of such is not the purpose of this thread, from my understanding. It is, however, the most usually pertinent and visible of skill-modifier-explosion-syndrome. Due to the high skill caps, to present any sort of challenge to the individuals with {N≡N+1} skill modifiers requires an immersion-breakingly high DC, where in any normal situation they could break reality by taking-1. The higher DCs also encourage gear dependance rather than dedicated character focus (+17 hide for about 7k [see above posting] VS needing to spend 14 levels worth of skillpoint dedication), and the combining of both leads to untouchable specialists, which I see to unfortunately compound the problem.

Best solution is to prevent skill stacking based on source-type, but unfortunately I do not think the engine accounts for more than source-by-GUID. It would likely be more complicated than the alternative suggestions of limiting power-creep by combining skills.

Hopefully this is informative, rather than being a rant.
Cheers,
Kit

[gbbishop]

I would not mind this. Although I think the skill point boosts most classes have gotten help a lot with being able to invest in RP skills without crippling your character too badly.

Right back to point. I originally encuntered the flip side to this. trying out the new weapon master. Seems there are a few classes that are stuck with 2 +int skillpoints/level.

WM is 2 while both fighter and Sword Saint are 4 and both of these appear to be as powerful (possibly more so) combat wise.

Arcane trickster is still at 4 - I think the well deserve a bump to 5 or even 6.

Stalwark is still a 2 as are many other PRCs. Classes that no longer offer the power (compared to the boosted base classes) to make up for the the lower skill points.

maybe a server wide 3+int with a few exceptions at 2 would be a good place to start. (wiz mystic Theurge and EK can stay 2 for example) They all have the int bonus to compensate and the spells to replace skills.