Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[cmosier]

I haven't edited because I'm pretty accepting when I screw up. Just keep on pushing forward with the new knowledge I learned. That being said... I'll fix it.

Knock is still a horrible spell. Though I like the Pathfinder version a little better.

[Elusa]

We forgive and forget. Mostly forget.

But yeah, the pathfinder version could work. Here's the relevant section:

Knock opens stuck, barred, or locked doors, as well as those subject to hold portal or arcane lock. When you complete the casting of this spell, make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus.

[gbbishop]

I like the pathfinder method.

[cmosier]

We forgive and forget. Mostly forget.

Elusa.... that name sounds familiar... somewhere in the distant past... I recall a character by that name I think...

[sonuvalich]

I am amazed at the hatred of knockers in this thread. It emulates what is typically a rogue's class skill, but it cannot disarm traps, sneak attack, hide in plain sight to eavesdrop on other PC's, pickpocket, or have roguish charms. The argument that it steals a class's thunder does not sit with me, because as has been said ANYONE can take ranks in the skill. I'm really amazed at how heated and long this thread became over a meh level 2 spell that I never see anyone use on the server because it doesn't work on locks after Spittlefist caves. You want to know a real bullshit spell? The original cleric detect traps spell from NWN that also disarmed them. THAT was a big middle finger to rogues.

[dangotgam]

No. Knock needs to go. The fact that a caster can unlock doors is utterly, and completely, disgusting.

On the same note, I think UMD needs to go, because it steals the thunder of other Casters. Fighters DDing and casting Mord's? Tch. Disgusting.

...

Sarcasm is my New Year's resolution.

[gbbishop]

I am amazed at the hatred of knockers in this thread. It emulates what is typically a rogue's class skill, but it cannot disarm traps, sneak attack, hide in plain sight to eavesdrop on other PC's, pickpocket, or have roguish charms. The argument that it steals a class's thunder does not sit with me, because as has been said ANYONE can take ranks in the skill. I'm really amazed at how heated and long this thread became over a meh level 2 spell that I never see anyone use on the server because it doesn't work on locks after Spittlefist caves. You want to know a real bullshit spell? The original cleric detect traps spell from NWN that also disarmed them. THAT was a big middle finger to rogues.

^this

[cmosier]

I've a hard time believing there is somebody sitting around thinking... "My wizard sure is useless... I wish he can open locks."

I have, however, heard such lamentations from rogues. I also had my own when I played an elven rogue several years ago.

Now granted, it's not the job of staff to make everybody happy and have everything make sense. They are doing a good job at keeping things fair.

[gbbishop]

Rogues are much better now. Compared to even a few months ago.

The bottom line is there should not be a class specific "pass" to access areas on the server.

There can of course be special cases... Certain locks exist because areas are in development... are not to be developed, or any number of behind the scenes reasons.

We have established there are many ways to skin a cat, er open a locked door. All of these ways are feasible in RL or in PnP they are not in a PW. adding more ways to bypass locked doors does not reduce a rogues chance to shine, players do that already but blitzing through levels. :P

I say give all rogues stealth at full speed, but the will never happen.

[cmosier]

My view point is there are already several places you cannot reasonably pass without a fighter type or really buffed out caster. What's the difference between really hard monsters and a locked door?

[Fury]

I say give all rogues stealth at full speed, but the will never happen.

Oh sweet gods, THIS.

It doesn't even have to be full speed. Just a feat that can boost the speed. I have to stay stealthed to avoid that unfortunate condition known as "death", for the most part- but by the time I reach the fight, it's LONG over. I love playing a rogue. Rogues are absolutely divinely fun. But when we go do a dungeon, it's literally a case where the people involved need to have a pre-dungeon meeting to agree on whether or not the Rogue will get to play in the adventurer games.

Open all the damn locks you want. Open all the locks. Disarm the damn traps. Just put in a feat, even with pre-reqs, that give Rogues a chance to move a little faster while stealthed. (I would say the Shadow feat would make an excellent pre-req. Those who take that feat are obviously stealth oriented, so it just makes sense that they are comfortable enough in that state to move faster than normal)

Yes, I know this has been shot down, probably a million times. Because you, the devs, love the taste of Rogue-ish suffering, and salty, salty tears.

[Lothoir]

You don't have to stealth all the time, especially with HiPS. Just let the tanks draw aggro and run behind someone for flanking damage. Use archery to initiate, a few monsters will peel from the tanks and go for you. Once they are in between you and a tank, HiPS and they'll turn to attack a fighter. Then stab-stab-stab.

[dangotgam]

Yeah, by the same token, if your Rogue feels useless without being the sole provider of the ability to open locks, you're doing it wrong.

I agree, though, in that Pathfinder Knock is a good balance.

[Valhalla]

Rogues aren't inherently bad at PvE. A rogue in faction gear, built for combat, can do just fine. A rogue with HiPS (through whatever means) plays a lot like the now-improved rangers - high DPS, minimal survivability.

Yeah, soloing is a bitch, but soloing is a bitch for a lot of people, and its more fun to party anyway. Especially with UMD as a class skill, no rogue has any excuse why they wouldn't have at least 10 UMD and wands of pretty much every survivability spell around - Shield, Shield of Faith, Death Ward, Mirror's Image, Displacement, etc. You have plenty of tools to increase your survivability - even non-faction rogues - if you just use them. Not everyone can be a fighter and be awesome at all things always without help, so use the crutch you were given.

Basically: If your rogue isn't pulling their weight, they've made a choice to get there. Not joining a faction, building more for RP, not knowing how absurd UMD is, or playing their class poorly.

Take your pick, because Rogue isn't inherently lacking.

[sonuvalich]

*Shrug* Andelain has invested some points into the Open Lock skill. If he can do it, then so can you!

It just dawned on me how wrong it is for a paladin to know how to B&E, I call shenanigans sir!