Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[gbbishop]

I dunno cuz knock doesn't work anywhere in the valley except the spittlefist hills.

Would it be so terrible to up the skill on knock?

I know the idea was to promote rouge types but. My parties are often VERY small i.e. two. a little more utility out of those "utility" spells would be cool for casters who don't just spam isaacs.

What say ye?

[sonuvalich]

I agree with this idea. Places like Argyle that you can only get into one crypt without a rogue are a bit vexing. I understand the desire to push for having them, but I would rather it be "there is a big, nasty trap that will make you pay for not having a rogue" instead of "no rogue, GTFO"

[gbbishop]

@sonuvalich - agreed!

[cmosier]

I never been a fan of spells that replace class skills. Wizards have enough going for them. So, I'm torn. Between wanting to follow pen and paper closely and not liking a pen and paper rule.

[Fury]

Wait... there are actually places where I could be using my open lock skill? Really?

DON'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM US! *sobs* Rogues get no love. None.

[Valhalla]

I understand the desire to push for having them, but I would rather it be "there is a big, nasty trap that will make you pay for not having a rogue" instead of "no rogue, GTFO"

100% agree with this. I feel for rogues and their lack of being needed, but requiring a rogue to do something in a PW screws over more people than it doesn't.

[wangxiuming]

I personally would not mind seeing Knock be able to open some lower DC locks, but I think I think I would still prefer to see locks guarding higher-tier treasure or in higher-level dungeons be something reserved for those who invest into Open Lock.

[cmosier]

I personally would not mind seeing Knock be able to open some lower DC locks, but I think I think I would still prefer to see locks guarding higher-tier treasure or in higher-level dungeons be something reserved for those who invest into Open Lock.

This would be a good compromise. Personally, I feel if you don't have a rogue, you should be pretty screwed.

[Fury]

Personally, I feel if you don't have a rogue, you should be pretty screwed.

Every fiber of my being wants to take this bait. But I'm resisting. Do you see how hard I'm resisting?

[Valhalla]

That's a very PnP outlook - which, in the context of PnP, I totally agree with.

But PWs are subject to the whims of people logging in - what if you're a euro player and there aren't any rogues that log on in your times? Or what if you're a paladin and all the rogues being played are evil dicks? (Hint: The answer shouldn't be "You're shit out of luck." We're all here to have fun, not be dicked over because fate and/or roleplaying your character well)

In a PnP game you can get around this by planning for a rogue in the party ahead of time, or hiring a Rogue Cohort. NWN2 PWs are a different beast entirely, and I've never seen dungeons that require a specific class go over well in 7 years of PWing.

Requiring some Open Lock is another thing entirely - anyone can cross class or take Able Learner without too much difficulty.

[Doubtful]

Dungeon design should play a huge part in this, rogues and skill monkeys shouldn't be essential but perhaps they can make life easier (GBX's new spawn system and its traptrastic features should help with this a lot). Maybe having a mage with high mage skills will prevent (or allow) other options. RP skills and what not should be a part of the dungeon experience!

Requiring a certain class to complete something is a bad thing, having certain classes being able to shine is a good thing! Options are good.

Of course some classes will be able to do things that others can't, this should definitely be experienced in game or what's the point of even having classes or skills.

Of course, there's always the reality that after a few runs any puzzles, tricks or intrege just become normal, once you know the answers there is no puzzle!

[Fury]

True story- the Open Lock skill is absolutely not restricted to Rogues. Anyone can learn it, if they are willing to invest the points into it.

[cmosier]

The flip side of "everybody is here to have fun" would be the rogue who is mediocre in a fight and has to watch the super buffed warriors and their wizard lackey charge through traps and Knock every lock open.

Paladins are very powerful. There code is supposed to be a restriction. Good or Neutral rogues can be hard to come by. I believe "shit out of luck" is appropriate in this instance.

I'm saying this as a guy playing a fighter. There are things Byrun cannot do without a caster's help. That means I'm also shit out of luck if I want to do the daily and Sandro is in one of his moods.

The point is, sometimes you're just going to have to accept the limitations of your character or find an RP way to make nice with a rogue. The world shouldn't change for the character. The character needs to adapt to the world.

[sonuvalich]

I'm saying this as a guy playing a fighter. There are things Byrun cannot do without a caster's help. That means I'm also shit out of luck if I want to do the daily and Sandro is in one of his moods.

Dafuq?!?

[Saulus]

Haha.