Can Juna raise the dead?

[Laurk]

Is it possible to put a convo on Sister Juna at the Sanctuary of Ilmater for "raising the dead?" Its currently free at the temple of Selune and most other temples for this service anyway.

While I understand that some people are extremely opposed to the idea of the Sanctuary being a potential respawn point as opposed to the legion barracks or temple of Selune, this would be something you would have to "choose" to take a body too and get them restored. I hate having to go to Selune's temple and then OOC run back to the Sanctuary to do something that you should absolutly be able to get done there, and that actually makes realistic RP sense to have done there as its free.

I do loose out on a lot of great oppertunities to role play helping wounded adventurers recover because of this. It seems a shame to flush RP chances away on NPCs because they inexplicably raise the dead for free, when we aren't even actually raising the dead. I missed a golden oppertunity with Sari once, and tonight with Asim; as well as several other chances as people went to Selune's temple as none of us have the diamonds neccesary to raise dead, and wouldn't bother anyway as you can just do it for free elsewhere. If I could just take them to my own temple for a "raise," that would be great.

EDIT: Even better. Is it possible to be able to wave the material cost of casting raise dead and ressurect so long as you are in a temple? That way Abby who is probably the most skillful healer in the Valley of Sundren could RP helping mortally wounded adventurers in her temple, rather than having to OOC take them to an NPC to be saved by a lesser healer?

[Lotus]

I thought this was a soup kitchen for poor people that offered patching up for the cut-up.

I mean no.

[Valhalla]

Diamonds and/or raise dead scrolls more readily available for purchase outside of specific factions would be nice, at least. That way PCs like Abby could still do the RP they'd like to without needing to go elsewhere, for a price.

[Kitsunestume]

Even better. Is it possible to be able to wave the material cost of casting raise dead and ressurect so long as you are in a temple? That way Abby who is probably the most skillful healer in the Valley of Sundren could RP helping mortally wounded adventurers in her temple, rather than having to OOC take them to an NPC to be saved by a lesser healer?

In support of Lotus' opinion on the matter, this would make no sence, from an ingame or balance perspective. From a balance perspective, people just need to grab cleric friends and they can lay into each other all they want, barring fatigue; making any prolonged conflict pointless. We experienced some tenancies similar to this before the Vitality system was implemented.

From an ingame perspective: there is a problem with infinite immortal armies. :-/ If you just need to drag anyone back to a temple and pop - they come back to life at the words of an intermediate priest (Raise Dead is usable by any 10th level cleric), it makes it rather silly to think of any conflict on a larger-scale having any potential for end.

Adventurers are a very small percentage of the population, and tend to get nearer to death without the same irreversibility of commoners certainly, but death is. . well. . . something to be avoided. Making avoiding death, and thus death itself, cheap circumvents the finality and makes it less of a consideration, when 'We will probably die' should usually be saved for those epic RP moments rather than common grinding.

Aside: Also, diamonds cost money(5 to ten thousand stags, depending on the spell). And unless the Sanctuary happens to have a small chest of them in the back-room in contradiction to the vow of poverty Abby seems to be encouraging there, resurrections on any sustainable scale would be impossible.
High level resurrections can cost three thousand gold more than the minimum for Raise Dead(source). The temple then absorbs any extra costs depending on affiliation and connection to the deceased. While it may be 'free' to resurrect at temples now, I understand that it is a bug and should probably not be relied upon for comparison.

Just a few of my own thoughts on the topic.
Cheers,
Kit

[Laurk]

But remember... we aren't raising the dead. We are helping people recover from serious injuries. Thus the isuance of material components "in" a temple would be serving as an OOC bypass from being forced to go to the temple of Selune and allow clerics to do the "healing" in their own temples... where they "would" be taking people. Im not asking for the material component to be removed outside of one's own temple. So no free raises on the battlefield for example.

This request is an RP aid because I think its silly to have to take my friends to a temple of Selune as we try to fullfill the request of the staff to consider death to be serious injury rather than death. If I was taking them there to be IC "raised" I would understand. But im not, im supposed to be taking them there to be "healed" as per the server rules on the subject. Selune's clerics doen't even get the healing domain. Abby would be twice the "healer" any of Selune's priests would be. An OOC wave of material components would allow clerics to "RP" reviving badly wounded people "IN" their temples.

I thought this was a soup kitchen for poor people that offered patching up for the cut-up.

Its a temple of Ilmater. Ilmatari clerics are by far the best healers in Faerun among human gods. That is a well documented source fact. In what possible way would this place be incapable of "patching up" wounded adventurers? Or any other temple containing a cleric who can cast cure spells for that matter? Port Avanthyr's Sanctuary is a particularly well funded temple of Ilmater for that matter too. It has extremely wealthy and friendly benifactors among the nobility and factions who RP keeping it very well supplied. It also has a healer with a 54 healing skill who can cast mass heal several times a day. They should have "patching up" pretty well covered.

[Doubtful]

Free raises anywhere is a no-no, if there is a spot where free raises can happen then this should be reported as a bug not used and exploited or used as justification for more free raises.

[Laurk]

Raises in the temple of Selune are free. I assumed this was because we weren't supposed to be RPing them as "raises" and instead, as "long term care" for those who have had "near death" experiances. If thats the case though, ill consider this moot.

It seems to me it would make more sense if we comitted as a server to one concept or the other. Either we treat death as death, and you have to be raised to come back, or we treat it as mortal wounds which require a temple for "long term care" to recover from (unless you have the components to use raise/ressurect in the field).

If we are going to go with the former, things should remain as they are for all the reasons James pointed out; but Selune should start covering her costs. Diamonds are 5k. Infact I would "prefer" it to be cheaper for PCs to raise the dead than temples. Much like the weapon crafting economy, you should be able to get a better deal from players as it fosters RP. I would vastly prefer someone go to get a diamond and have Abby do the raising for RP purposes than to have some dumb NPC do it for next to nothing. There is no RP in that.

If we are going with the latter, than the "raise dead" option in a priests convorsation should be changed to an offer for long term care (for whatever prices the staff decides). Perhaps the level of care you pay for would dictate how much vitality you get back? A rich temple would offer better care, but a cheap sanctuary would give you minimum care.

As things are now, I think its a little confusing. We're asked to RP one way, but all the systems in place suggest another.

Personally id like to see more vitality lost. Ressurection heals back the most, raise second, and long term care much less, respawning none.

[Doubtful]

No, the bug effecting the Selunite temple is not intentional, something that should be fairly clear from the error message that a raise there spits out. Something people seem to conveniently overlook.

Consider the costs involved to be monies paid for services rendered, a minor miracle for those blessed by the fates to keep them this side of death, not the giant miracle of brining them back from beyond the veil. The services of the clergy are not cheap.

[Laurk]

Good to know, thanks Doubtful.

[Elusa]

The costs of Raise Dead and Resurrection really need to be revisited. 10 or 20 extra vitality regained doesn't seem to justify the 4200 stag difference between being raised by a temple and by a player.

[Laurk]

That's pretty true. If people inevitably would prefer to use an NPC at a temple, than role play with a PC, and the core reason is cost, then its probably a good idea to ask: Does this system enhance roleplay, or decrease it?

Much like we like to encourage people to use PC crafters rather than just go to stores, for the immersivness and RP value, It seems like we should incentivise PCs to seek out clerics for all their "raise dead" or "wake from coma" needs (depending on how you want to RP that). It truly seems like the NPC should be where you go when there are no clerics available. The easiest way to facilitate that would be to make a PC raise cheaper than an NPC raise. I can see making NPC raises cheap for low level PCs, but after you get past level 6, the PC should be the "first" choice for the purposes of role play.

[Torgar]

Question: How many people are there on the server that ACTIVELY play someone capable of casting raise dead? Seriously, I'm asking. Because from how I"VE counted, the answer is "not a whole hell of a lot." And yes, there are scrolls of it that anyone can use, but how many clerics/FS's do you know of that can raise the dead? That are ACTIVELY playing that character?

So no, I don't think PC raises should be cheaper, because they are much rarer and actually give back vitality. And trust me, when you get killed by a high level blackguard or evil cleric opposed to your god, and you are losing almost 40 vitality for it, you will WANT that extra 20 vitality back and be more then willing to pay the 10k gold it costs over a temple raise.

Clerics: Buff your team and you won't have to have them get raised. There is more to being a cleric then just hoping they get hurt enough to warrant a heal. Damage prevention is death prevention.

[Valhalla]

Clerics: Buff your team and you won't have to have them get raised. There is more to being a cleric then just hoping they get hurt enough to warrant a heal. Damage prevention is death prevention.

This. Buffs are a party's best friend.

[Laurk]

Question: How many people are there on the server that ACTIVELY play someone capable of casting raise dead?

Monsters do pretty low damage and people rarley get hurt, even without much in the way of buffs. People probably don't feel a need to play clerics because of this. So isn't this argument putting the cart before the horse a bit? So lets keep institutionalising those reasons that disincentivise clerics? People tend to play classess that are needed on a given server. While many seem to be happy that the only neccessary class are tanks, I prefer variety. Variety comes about by having many differant nitches to fill that give all classes something to do. While we do have some variety, have you ever heard of a NWN server that didn't have a few clerics on at any given time? I haven't.

And then there's logic: Why does a temple of Selune give out raise dead spells which don't even come close to covering their material cost? If they are only healing, how come PC clerics can't do it? And most of all: Why on earth do we want to give an RP centric job to an NPC instead of letting PC's fill it? Is this Diablo?

Im not suggesting removing NPC clerics. Im suggesting making the price of a PC raise competitive with an NPC raise so that "some" may "choose" to use a PC instead of an NPC because they would prefer to roleplay rather than having a massive price disparety with no basis in logic be the deciding factor. "Hmm.. ive got a level 20 cleric right next to me, so I can pony up 5k for a diamond and RP it, or take this fella to Selune's temple for 800gp. No brainer."

Clerics: Buff your team and you won't have to have them get raised. There is more to being a cleric then just hoping they get hurt enough to warrant a heal. Damage prevention is death prevention.

I haven't been a part of a group who had to get a raise in some time. The last one was when Sari got hit for 450 odd damage from a disentigrate spell by the boss in Whurest. She was also buffed to the hilt. I think you should play a cleric how you like. More importantly I think you should play a cleric according to the dogma of the God you choose, not by what is most effective in beating dungeons. The Gods of the Faerunian pantheon spread across a wide variety of areas of expertese.

Thus far, playing a focused healer of Ilmater, I have had "0" difficulty keeping any group im with alive through the entire dungeon. I have no need to use buffs other than situationally as the need arises. I might toss a freedom of momement, remove fear, death ward or various other buffs on as they are needed. Ive lost a handful of people since I started here, usually due to walkmesh problems, Combat Medic's Sanctuary ability (usually me dying: not really an issue these days), or because the party ran in all differant directions and were spread so far, I couldn't help. Parties that do that deserve to loose members. I don't see the value in making someone nearly invincable in a dungeon with a zilllion buffs so they can run full speed without any thought to tactics or strategy. Sundren's dungeons are already easy enough in my experiance. Ive been playing a healer for years and years and ive found no real advantage to being a buffing cleric than a dedicated healer on any server with dungeons that present a significant challenge. I can heal back with a cure serious more damage than a protect from elements can prevent for example, so its inefficient to use that spell slot for prot from elements when I could use the cure spell unless the group member has very low HP for example. Spontaneous casting is wonderful.

If I was playing a Tormite cleric, I would focus on defensive buffs with healing. If I was a Tyran, id favor more offensive ones & toss in a few attack spells based on evil creatures. If I was playing a Tempestian cleric, id probably split my spells between offensive buffs & defensive buffs, esspecially on their armor and weapons, and use spells like Heroism and direct buffs that enhance martial ability. Some other gods are probably a better fit for blaster clerics, etc etc. Not every cleric should seem like the same kind of cleric. Your diety matters. I don't think there is anyone who would mistake my Ilmatari cleric for anything but an Ilmatari cleric. I focus on healing, restoratives/curatives such as remove paralysis/curse and some damage prevention. Every cleric of every god should have their own unique flavor and spell sets they prefer in my opinion. Just my opinion.

[Kitsunestume]

And then there's logic: Why does a temple of Selune give out raise dead spells which don't even come close to covering their material cost? If they are only healing, how come PC clerics can't do it? And most of all: Why on earth do we want to give an RP centric job to an NPC instead of letting PC's fill it? Is this Diablo?

Im not suggesting removing NPC clerics. Im suggesting making the price of a PC raise competitive with an NPC raise so that "some" may "choose" to use a PC instead of an NPC because they would prefer to roleplay rather than having a massive price disparety with no basis in logic be the deciding factor. "Hmm.. ive got a level 20 cleric right next to me, so I can pony up 5k for a diamond and RP it, or take this fella to Selune's temple for 800gp. No brainer."

High level resurrections can cost three thousand gold more than the minimum for Raise Dead(source). The temple then absorbs any extra costs depending on affiliation and connection to the deceased. While it may be 'free' to resurrect at temples now, I understand that it is a bug and should probably not be relied upon for comparison.

I'm guessing the resurrection code bug aught to be fixed then.
Competition and preference will then be ensured.