Spells Visual Effect

[sonuvalich]

Quote:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

Copy/Paste refuting of your argument, sir!

Edit for self-correction though: Warlock invocations can suffer arcane spell failure for armor according to traditional rules...so maybe there is some hand-waving?

Pulled this from D&D tools website:

Because the somatic components required for warlock invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

[Shadechild]

Can you turn it off GBX? The warlock casting animations that is.

[GodBeastX]

Except anyone with sufficient ranks in Spellcraft. Warlock invocations have verbal and somatic components, and are considered spell-like abilities which can be ID'd by Spellcraft.

I read a little more.

They have a somatic component, but not a verbal, and they are super simple ones, which means you wave your hand or do something else for movement. I have the book in front of me.

Because the somatic components required for warlock
invocations are relatively simple, a warlock can use any of
his invocations while wearing light armor without incurring
the normal arcane spell failure chance.

And then there's this:

Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don’t require modifi ed spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or invocations as they do with spells (though because spell-like abilities don’t have verbal or somatic components, Sudden Silent Spell doesn’t apply and Sudden Still Spell applies only to invocations).

Warlock abilities actually have no words at all you have to say unless that SPECIFIC ability does.

BALEFUL UTTERANCE
Least; 2nd
You speak a single syllable of the
Dark Speech (described in Book of Vile
Darkness), affecting an object or area
as if by a shatter spell. If a creature is
holding or wearing the target of the
spell and the target is destroyed, the
creature must make a Fortitude save or
be dazed for 1 round and deafened for
1 minute by your terrible word. This is
a sonic effect.

Utterance you have to utter something XD

In other words, GG trying to figure out what a warlock is doing.

[wangxiuming]

But warlock invocations do have verbal and somatic components, otherwise they would not be subject to being silenced or arcane spell failure...

I would certainly love it if that were not the case though.

Edit: i post slow

[Kitsunestume]

In fact, as Kit pointed out, Warlocks are probably the most obvious casters. They can't silence or still and every Invocation has a verbal or somatic component or both, except for a handful that have super obvious effects (turning you into a devil/demon, making you vanish, summoning a wall of fire, etc).

I'm with GBX and Sonuvalich on this one: [removed, more complete explanation all ready in place] . Don't need to remove what dosen't exist. However, problems can occur when an effect is produced that should not actually exist.

edit: also, in reference to Dark Speech - If you heard it and understood it, chances are you got hit by it. :P

[Fuzziebunny]

While a spell craft check might not show what is being done, the fact that someone just turned invisible is clear. Ergo.... You don't NEED spell craft to figure out some things. Visual spell effects are not the only clue that someone just cast a spell.

The question might be asked how it was done, but the fact that it is done is obvious.

[Valhalla]

Then maybe that should be made clear on the wiki somewhere, and the Spellcraft ID'ing of Warlock spells turned off as well?

As it stands, many spells (like Devour magic) have verbal and somatic components in NWN2, and all are ID'able by Spellcraft.

E: While Warlock invocations are considered "spell like abilities", they don't actually function like them in many ways. SLAs don't have spell failure (as they don't have a somatic component), and can be used while Silenced (as they don't have a verbal component). The fact that warlocks have spell failure at all makes it pretty clear that the SLA rules aren't a perfect fit for what they use.

And as an example, Devour Magic is V/S IG, while all of the Essences are S only, which fits the PnP lore better.

[Kitsunestume]

While a spell craft check might not show what is being done, the fact that someone just turned invisible is clear. Ergo.... You don't NEED spell craft to figure out some things. Visual spell effects are not the only clue that someone just cast a spell.

There is a difference between identifying the spell, and identifying the effect. Anyone can see that the wizard just threw a big ball of fire, for example, but if you want to know how to remove it, how to counterspell(oh, if only we could), how powerful it is, how long it is likely to last, et-cetera, you would need to identify how the spell was crafted: ergo spellcraft.

[GodBeastX]

You really have to understand the broader picture of what the hell is going on literally when these things go down.

You identify a spell because you know THIS gesture is about to do that, or these words invoke this spell and you get AHAH! That guy is casting this spell!

A warlock, on the other hand, isn't casting a spell at all. They are doing gestures, yes, but it's more akin to actions required by a warlock not identifiers for what they are doing, although I suppose it might identify what that specific warlock is doing if you saw it before, but really it doesn't follow the idea that "Every warlock is doing this so it must be Eldritch Chain."

It was literally meant to be more like when Ryu pulls his hands back and then thrusts them forward to do a hadouken. It's their Chi in the end. It's wild energy that is blazing in their souls. They aren't tapping the weave and such.

But there was also the idea of "Balancing" a warlock. They didn't want warlocks to easily walk around in fullplate AND cast invocations all day. So they make up an excuse why they can't wear armor.

If every warlock did the same thing, it could be taught to other warlocks but warlocks can't learn their invocations from each other. Why? Cuz it's specific to the warlock. Pacts matter as well, I'm sure. I could see Fey warlocks doing weird dances and crap to invoke.

[sonuvalich]

Gasp! You mean Obsidian screwed something up translating it from PnP to vidjamagame? They should be sending the Sundren staff checks for fixing all the crap in their game.

I think removing verbal components from most would be a good fix, would prevent silence from screwing them when it shouldn't, but they do have somatic components so ID should be possible....maybe just with way higher DC since you only have a hand motion to go on?

[Valhalla]

That all seems reasonable. Why not make a note of that on the Warlock page then (kind of like the Paladin note), and turn off spellcraft ID'ing warlock invocations or tell people to ignore it if that's not possible?

[GodBeastX]

As it stands, many spells (like Devour magic) have verbal and somatic components in NWN2, and all are ID'able by Spellcraft.

As I said, it's not like anyone did anything wrong or RP'd badly. So this isn't an attack on people. I'm just speaking in why I'm in FAVOR of less visual effects.

There's just a lot of crap people tell from VFXs and sounds and crap which they shouldn't be able to. In my perfect world for RP only the effects that have visuals would have them, only casters with each component would do them, and people with spell craft would be the only ones who rub their chin.

"Hmmm, I saw Maine blink her eyes rapidly and that guy vanished. She must have cast invisibility on him."

Which is valid RP to me.

What I don't like is everyone around going:

"Hmmm, I heard dark words and shadows surround Maine, then a bright flash of light! I ducked behind a bench to save my ass!"

For something that'd normally be pretty damn subtle in P&P

[Fuzziebunny]

Honestly, spell craft is a little silly. How the heck one skill allows you to know exactly what every single caster is doing . Really.. You studied all the rights of the Church, got those nature rituals down, and ... Oh, by the way... You trained with mages to. It is silly when you think about it.

[sonuvalich]

So this isn't an attack on people. I'm just speaking in why I'm in FAVOR of less visual effects.

I would say this discussion is more "lively" than it is "hostile".

[Valhalla]

I would say this discussion is more "lively" than it is "hostile".

Telling people they're wrong and being told I'm wrong is one of my favorite pastimes. Hope no one takes that personally.

Having seen the various sides I think it'd be fair if warlocks got Verbal removed from everything, got verbal put back on Word of Changing (which never had it to begin with, lol Obsidian), and then got a jacked or removed DC for spellcraft to ID them.


Edit: Having thought about this, I think it's fair even to people trained to combat/recognize arcane magic users. Seeing walls of purple fire, hentai winter tentacles, and rays of brimstone magic flying from someone's fingertips when you're not able to ID them will speak volumes as to what they are.

You don't need to use Spellcraft so much as you just need to use process of elimination. "Oh, well, I've got 30 spellcraft and I can't tell what they just did, so either they're using crazy metamagic orrrrrrr..."