Defending vs Disarm and Knockdown

[Mournas]

Since Sundren is becoming Pathfinderized I would like to suggest using Pathfinder Rules for defending against the highly exploited disarm and knockdown feats. That is ... Combat Maneuver Defense - Specifically the bold part.

Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers

Special Size Modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. (A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity or dodge bonus to its CMD.)

Or Add Spiked Gauntlets to the game.

[thaelis]

That sounds like an amazing idea actually, but would probably be a lot of work?

[Torgar]

Locked gauntlets, you are thinking Locked gauntlets, not spiked.

Also, all the people who are good at disarming and knocking down would still be that good at it. And actually, in the case of knock down, you have a much better chance of resisting it as an opposed strength check then having CMD if you are anything but a pure attack rating class. Wizard with a strength with buffs of +2 against a +12 on knockdown still has a much higher chance then the 26 cmd he'd have against a +48 bonus, which couldn't fail.

System works fine IMO.

[Mournas]

Locked gauntlets, you are thinking Locked gauntlets, not spiked.

Also, all the people who are good at disarming and knocking down would still be that good at it. And actually, in the case of knock down, you have a much better chance of resisting it as an opposed strength check then having CMD if you are anything but a pure attack rating class. Wizard with a strength with buffs of +2 against a +12 on knockdown still has a much higher chance then the 26 cmd he'd have against a +48 bonus, which couldn't fail.

System works fine IMO.

Don't think you read that correctly ... 20 BAB + Str mod + Dex Mod + Dodge + All other bonuses would equal much higher than 26 and it is much better for any class than the bogus system currently in the game. Which takes Full AB + Bonus for Larger Weapon Size vs Smaller.

[Torgar]

Don't think you read that correctly ... 20 BAB + Str mod + Dex Mod + Dodge + All other bonuses would equal much higher than 26 and it is much better for any class than the bogus system currently in the game. Which takes Full AB + Bonus for Larger Weapon Size vs Smaller.

Read what I said again. I said WIZARD, as in low BAB classes.

base=10
BAB=10
STR=0 (+2 buffed)
Dex= 2 (+4 buffed)

other self buffs= +6-+10 more.

So, maybe even 36 with a wizard at his full buffs. Against a warrior who can easily hit upper forties. So, the warrior has to roll a....-13 to fail. Make that a rogue with same buffs, or other 3/4 BAB class. Higher dex, and Higher BAB, so change that -13 to a -4.

So, you have to be a full BAB class to defend in any way against a full BAB class. Yes, you can get a lot of other side bonuses, but in the end, the advantage will always, ALWAYS be to the high BAB class with the high strength, and especially if they have some template making them stronger.

Right now, the current 3.5 dnd system of opposed strength checks is still a better chance for those with a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB then going to pathfinder rules for it.

And if you are a pure BAB class, and you are a fighter, then you win every CMB check against every class that ISN'T a fighter, period. Focus's add up, as do weapon group, as do the weapon's bonus, as do anything at all that ups your attack rating.

It's a good idea in spirit, but I think it simply hurts all the current characters who aren't pure warriors too much to be worthwhile, and this is from someone who loves Pathfinder with all his heart.

[Raksha]

... except for unarmed fighters, which let's be honest, are just monks and sacred fists. Since they're immune to disarm, ridiculous disarm is a big plus for them.

The biggest problem I see is that it takes already dominant strategies -- stacking AC, as much Dodge as you can cram into a character, big Divine Shield -- and makes them even more so, removing a potential counter. But I'll also agree that spending an entire fight scurrying after dropped weapons is no fun.

Increase the cooldown, maybe?

( Knockdown, by contrast, seems pretty well balanced. )

EDIT: Ninja'ed. What he said. /\

[Lotus]

Mathematically speaking, CMB/D would make life extra hellish for half and 3/4 BAB characters v. full BAB characters. Full BAB characters would be even against each other.

[cmosier]

I think this is all linked to people wanting to be that solo bad ass character. Groups are your friend. Also, I already asked about locking gauntlets. I'm not sure what is more "no" than no, but that was the answer I got.

[thaelis]

Ok, it appears I did not fully understand how the Disarm/Knockdown works, ignore my earlier comment!

[Mournas]

Problem is Knockdown and Disarm use Full AB already ...

Disarm:


Knockdown:


So Fighters already have the lead by leaps and bounds.

Edit: Or is that just to see if the attack "hits" then an invisible Str Check is made?

[cmosier]

I'm pretty sure I've had a Disarm hit and they still had their weapons. This is against the orcs that use heavy maces in the Mossdale. Best I can add right now.

[Lugwy]

If you look closely, the Bloodmaim Steamsmiths dual-wield their maces. So it may be best not to disarm them because that show of awesome isn't good for their accuracy.


EDIT: Furthermore, if a target cannot be disarmed, there'll be a blurb saying such in the combat log.

[cmosier]

Thought I seen two maces when they stood at a certain angle. Figured it was just time to go to bed. However, the orcs that dual wield axes can be disarmed twice. I'll check it out more later if I remember.

[Dispater]

The AB calculation is just to see if it hits. When you use knockdown sometimes you will see *Knockdown Missed*, when you fail you see *Knockdown Resisted*. Same for disarm. You must succeed on a melee touch attack to hit.

This is the NWN2 wiki page:

A character with this feat can attempt a special knockdown attempt, which does not cause damage but does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A character may only knock down creatures that are one size larger than itself or less. The attacker makes a d20 roll modified by his strength bonus, and the difference between his creature size and the target creature size times 4. The defender makes a d20 roll modified by the better of his strength and dexterity bonus. If the attacker meets or beats the defender's roll, the defender is knocked down. Prone characters cannot attack. Characters receive a +4 bonus to attack prone opponents in melee, but a -4 penalty to attack them with a ranged weapon.

[Mournas]

What is the disarm roll? As I understand it is AB + Size Mod + Weapon Size + 1d20 for both attacker and defender.