The State of Conjuration

[lostinspace]

tl;dr - Necromancy offers the only useful arcane summons. Consider extending the durations of conjuration spells or modifying the summoned creatures.


Speaking from the perspective of someone playing a wizard, the conjuration spells have little to no utility. The big drawback of the summon creature lineup is its duration. All summon creature spells have a duration of 18s plus 6s per level. This means an arcanist with a caster level of 20 will have the summon up and running for a little over two minutes. A low or mid-level arcanist will be lucky to have their summon around long enough to finish a single creature encounter.

This is the same kind of duration one expects for Improved Invisibility or Haste, i.e., a highly powerful short-term spell. Unlike the aforementioned spells, however, the conjuration spells are not useful enough to spend a slot on. The summons generally have sub-par AC and damage, posing a minor distraction to NPCs until they die. They can be made more potent if one buffs them, but the short duration means it's not worth slinging long-lasting spells on an ally that will soon vanish.

The Planar Binding and Mordekainen's Sword spells have the same duration issue, and their default summons are worse than the customized conjurations of the Summon Creature line.

The major exception to this is Necromancy. Summon Nightmare lasts a full 24 hours. Create Greater Undead lasts hour/level and offers what is probably the best summoned creature in the game.


Now, I understand there is a danger of long-lasting or powerful summons being essentially a replacement to party members, allowing casters to solo dungeons. As is, however, the conjuration spells are a waste of spellbook space. (Also, casters solo dungeons anyways).

One alternative to extending their duration, then, would be to tweak the spawns so that they really are a high-powered spell that pays off despite its short duration. Perhaps the summons are themselves casters, slinging out a series of offensive spells, beam attacks, crowd control effects, etc., until they go down due to their mediocre AC. Then, you're not summoning a replacement party member so much as you're laying down a high-powered turret to help with a critical fight.

Or, the durations can just be made reasonable. Like a minute/level or more. That would be pretty nice.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

tl;dr - Necromancy offers the only useful arcane summons. Consider extending the durations of conjuration spells or modifying the summoned creatures.

...

The major exception to this is Necromancy. Summon Nightmare lasts a full 24 hours. Create Greater Undead lasts hour/level and offers what is probably the best summoned creature in the game.

Having toyed around with this some on my own wizard long ago, I agree.

The Nightmare and Greater Undead critters are good/amazing for their spell level and can be used as a 'proxy fighter' if one is alone. However, these spells are only usable by one 'side' of the alignment. That being evil or evil leaning neutral characters.

I believe there was some talk of modifying the planar summon spell line to make it similar in strength to Creater Undead? Or, at least something similar in strength for non-evil spell casters to use.

A little off topic: I'm not sure its a good idea to have a summon that makes PC fighter types obsolete for wizards. Or, at least replaceable for a lot of content. But, if its available to one alignment it makes sense to have something roughly equivalent for the others.

[Sparkie]

I agree full-heartedly that the state of Summon Creature Spells is pathetic. Hell, I've lost count of how many times my level 11 wizard has died because a Summon Creature spell wears off too soon. Things need to be fixed about those spells, so that, for example, a neutral good wizard at level 11 and a lawful evil wizard of the same level would actually be on par for summoning things, instead of the neutral good wizard dealing with something that dies off quickly and the lawful evil wizard having something that is equivalent to a fighter.

Off topic here: What was that spell caster feat that was broken and therefore now against the rules? I think that my wizard may have taken it, but I don't know.

[Talleyman99]

The idea Of a summon spell is aid in a pitched battle, not long duration battle buddies, play a druid or ranger for that. In Pnp summons are weaker then the lvl monsters you fight for this reason they are not meant to overshadow a player at all but aid them, as a distraction, or a little added damage or just another body on the field to soak up effects. make them a little stronger and there lists of what summoned better sure im all for that.

The create undead spells are not supposed to be true summons, they are literally creating a undead creature that become part of the world they now have been "created" into. so neverwinter gives them a longer duration Also in PnP there is a turn check when you make the undead or it's not even under your control.

That all said. If your not a goodly follower of a good god. and the friends you lvl with are the same, you can be of the mindset that undead are tools and you put them away when your done with them. It just happens to be against sundren law :P

[Torgar]

I have to say, I agree. Having played a caster to ninth level spells in the druid, cleric, and wizard lists I can honestly say the only pet that comes close to the necromancer pets is the 9th level spell "Elemental Swarm" simply because it lasts 1min/lvl, and the pets are sufficiently strong enough to take some hits and give some back. Even that spell pales to the Death knight, from the 8th level "Create greater undead." My friends and I have tested the Death Knight against the entire "elemental swarm" and the death knight beat all 4 of them, in succession. No rest in between. So, the eighth level spell completely outdoes a ninth level spell. In fact, the only pet that can stand toe to toe with the death knight is...the black guard skeleton pet. The death knight and the skeleton for BG's are of equal power.

So, in summation, I feel like the neutral and good summons do need a boost to bring them in line with the evil summons.

[thaelis]

Agreed. I think the problem lies in that the summons are unmodified D&d creatures. In PnP they would be ok, but in Sundren, where your stock standard enemies have +gazillion attack bonus and 45 AC they just don't measure up.

At least if they had a duration boost you could buff them. Even with all your buffs, I don't think any of the Summon Monsters could compare to a PC fighter with decent gear and equivalent buffs. Especially since the new Fighter updates. (I don't have Summon Monster IX so unsure about that one, but VIII dies quick enough)

[bipolar bear]

I agree. I have brought this issue up before. With that said how about a "summon creature"spell on the same lvl as create undead and greater undead? This way a wiz/druid/cleric dosnt have accsess to about 30 summoned creatures a day.

Perhaps a 3rd lvl summon and a summon greater? It might balance things a little. Just a thought.

[Doubtful]

Interesting how everyone focuses on the mechanical aspects of the spells, but almost entirely ignores the RP aspects.

One very major aspect of the long lasting Neutral/Evil summoning spells is that they've some fairly major IC consiquences if you're caught using them. Being found by many characters with your very own undead buddy can earn you anything from a stern lecture through to a lethal case of sword poisoning. It could also lead to your character being declared a threat to the safety of the population and/or declared outcast from Legion occupied territory.

Suggesting that those of a good alignment should be entitled to all of the benefits of a long duration summon and none of the drawbacks is more than a little cheeky.

As for Planar Binding and Summon Planar Ally. I wish those could be changed to match PnP. That'd be fun.

Overall though, a bit of a duration tweak might be in order although I'm concerned 1min/level might be a bit much.

[bipolar bear]

I would love to see druids, wiz/sorc's clerics (with animal domain) use these more often. 60 secs a lvl dose seem long, however would it be worth trying? This type of spell may make an interesting RP. Having true summoners out there could living up the world. For example, the unpracticed sorc who keeps summoning things by accident in the worst time and places.

The trade off on extened duration may be the waist of buffs on the creature.

[lostinspace]

I've focused primarily on the mechanical issues, because the balance of the spells is such that they are mechanically inoperative. There is no reason to have mordekainen's sword, summon creature, or planar binding in your spell book, ever. All casters have limited slots, and will opt for a more useful spell every time.

Socially acceptable summons can be made inferior to pariah summons, certainly. But as is, there's no reason to use them at all.

(On a minor unrelated note, animation necromancy spells can be used without severe social consequence as long as one is actually in the Legion. The Hands of Mundus have the power to both use those spells and issue permission to use those spells legally)

[thaelis]

Suggesting that those of a good alignment should be entitled to all of the benefits of a long duration summon and none of the drawbacks is more than a little cheeky.

Overall though, a bit of a duration tweak might be in order although I'm concerned 1min/level might be a bit much.

Then perhaps don't get rid of the power gap altogether, just reduce it from a 1000% difference to like 200%? 30 seconds per level?

I still think 1 min/level would be fine though. It would just mean people using Summon Monster instead of going and charming the Argyle zombies or Fathomless Champion. Control Undead is 1 min/level and if you buff it there is nothing it cannot kill. Summon Monster would still be slightly weaker.

[Kiroy]

Being found by many characters with your very own undead buddy can earn you anything from a stern lecture through to a lethal case of sword poisoning.

Doubtful has a point here. Someone was just arrested the other day for walking around with Undead out (via non-lethal case of sword poisoning.)

While having any magically summoned creature out while traveling is against Sundren law, having an elemental or construct out will probably just earn you a slap on the wrist and a polite request to put it away. Or in the case of Xaayne Zek, a bench being melted under him.

As it is, however, there is no real point in ever using any type of summon other than Undead. I think a moderate buff in the duration would actually put them into use while still keeping Undead summons superior.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Suggesting that those of a good alignment should be entitled to all of the benefits of a long duration summon and none of the drawbacks is more than a little cheeky.

Sorry if I was being disingenuous.

The way I was looking at, summoning a long duration good critter makes you just as much a target to evil characters as summoning undead makes you to good. But, with how the territory is laid out being branded as evil does limit you more than being branded good.

[Snowmane]

While having any magically summoned creature out while traveling is against Sundren law, having an elemental or construct out will probably just earn you a slap on the wrist and a polite request to put it away. Or in the case of Xaayne Zek, a bench being melted under him.

Just a clarification for players who may not be familiar with Sundren laws, it's illegal to have summons out inside a cities limits without permission. From the Sundren Laws page of the wiki

Regarding Magical Presences and Domesticated Wild Animals
Domesticated wild animals sometimes accompany visitors and adventurers. They, however, still remain a threat or source of fright to townsfolk. In all of Sundren, domesticated wild animals, unless properly caged or leashed, are allowed only by town gates or entrances. Magical presences are defined as creatures, beings, familiars, or presences bound to an individual by means of magic or of otherwise unnatural origins. Many magical presences are outlandish and bizarre in appearance or behavior, and it is therefore unlawful to have deviant magical presences in town in all of Sundren unless approved by the local or State government for the purpose of research, exhibit, or emergencies.

In the current state of the world I would assume that law only really applies to Port Avanthyr, Sundren and the Gate of the Sunderer, though I bet Mirakus, Sestra and Aquor have similar restrictions enforced by their controlling factions.

As for the original issue, perhaps a line of conjuration related Sundren custom feats could help to bring good summons on par to evil ones?

[Torgar]

Also, alter the "Gate" spell so that neutral/good characters can summon something other then a being of evil. Bad enough that greater create undead is min/level, but then good guys can't summon something to beat it because it's illegal, via gate.