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  • Fluff vs. Crunch, at the marketplace

    A lot of the recent focus in faction store revamps have been a concept that I've been interested in. Much to my satisfaction, the more recent item introduction seem to finally be keeping pace with the actual power level of the server. If it's stated that a 20th level character is the equivalent of an 8th level character via online-vs.-PnP experience, there is little sense in keeping the mentality that a +"whatever" item in-game is equivalent to a +"whatever" item in pen-and-paper. From what I understand, the initial server mechanics have evolved from a state where the level cap was much smaller than what it is now... but while those restrictions have been lifted, item balance has been slow to follow the new scale.

    However, the issue that is drawn is that while faction-based items are seeing an upheaval in their benefits, the many PCs which do not find kinship among the limited selection are somewhat left out in the cold. Factions provide the benefit of storyline driven events, a partnership with other members to rely on, and now the scales are even further tilted with mechanical benefit. Yes, I understand the reasoning that an organized initiative, with dedicated crafters, trade-relations, etc. would see a greater availability of such resources. However, availability should not automatically partner itself with existence. The many out-of-country merchants may very well provide the same quality of goods, if at an elevated price to represent supply-and-demand is used (keeping non-factioned characters on par, power-level wise). Sure, they may need to strive more to gather resources, but at the very least that's a passable obstacle to become a competitive force, rather than an insurmountable wall.

    In addition to the benefit of cheaper resources, faction items ought to monopolize the concept of item flavor. While both a "hypothetical Nature-based faction store" and a "free-to-access item store" may offer an amulet that gives "natural armor bonus +'X'", the free store would give just that, while the faction store would actually represent the faction. The amulet would be a "Necklace of Badger's Furs" or the like, giving a bonus to Heal or Survival for example, despite lower cost. Such would still maintain the concept of better item selection from faction stores, but would not automatically fence out nonfactioned characters from keeping up with the powercreep.

    EDIT: tl;dr: Factions already give a major benefit in other means. Matching faction items with less flavored and more expensive open-access items would assist in game balance between non-faction and faction PCs, without undermining the concept of faction stores.
    "I know that kind of man, it's hard to hold the hand of anyone, who is reaching for the sky just to surrender." ~ Leonard Cohen, The Stranger Song

    Samak Nerinide - Professional vagabond, arcane investigator, and expert drunkard.
    Ripentare - Living, breathing, Create Greater Undead, seeking the riddle of steel.
    Wylks Meshrunner - Self-proclaimed magehunter and former sky-pirate of Halruaa.

  • #2
    Faction conflict is the main focus of the server. Always has been, always will. Being outside of a faction and a loner is a conscious decision, and should be harder to play than being in a group that has better finances and equipment.
    Characters:
    Peridan Twilight, one-eyed dog of the Legion, deceased.
    Daniel Nobody, adventurer and part time problem solver.

    [DM] Poltergeist :
    If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge an intermediate deity's unbridled fury.

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    • #3
      The point that I hope to push is not one that will stray focus from faction conflict. Its focus occurs on the level of the 'fluff', with its own benefits already deeply ingrained within the process. I am not going against this. My focus here is 'crunch'.

      I already presented the concepts of lesser benefits that may not exactly levy against faction-store items, as well as the barrier of increased cost. Not being involved in a faction that may not truly represent the character archetype or (goodness no) uniqueness of a persona introduced should not cripple a character to the point of something nonviable. I actually think faction conflict would be made more interesting with the concept of actual free forces to contend/convince/coerce/etc. with, in order to enact an appropriate play for the faction.

      Likewise, spreading already included items on a certain scale would help mitigate the player mentality that any sort of a spellcaster within the group is the buffbot, required to provide level-dependant benefits that are in no way matched by comparable item progression.
      "I know that kind of man, it's hard to hold the hand of anyone, who is reaching for the sky just to surrender." ~ Leonard Cohen, The Stranger Song

      Samak Nerinide - Professional vagabond, arcane investigator, and expert drunkard.
      Ripentare - Living, breathing, Create Greater Undead, seeking the riddle of steel.
      Wylks Meshrunner - Self-proclaimed magehunter and former sky-pirate of Halruaa.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chocolate Radio View Post
        Not being involved in a faction that may not truly represent the character archetype or (goodness no) uniqueness of a persona introduced should not cripple a character to the point of something nonviable.
        'Nonviable' isn't what is happening with faction-less characters. 'Difficulties' is what is happening with faction-less characters. As it should be.

        The way I read it, you're simply suggesting a 'slight inconvenience' for faction-less characters so they can more or less be on par with Faction PCs after overcoming said 'slight inconveniences'.

        Faction-oriented characters will always be above-par when paired against Faction-less characters in terms of RP and Mechanical benefits, as the latter is a result of the former. As it should be. I would even compare it to the recent changes regarding Vitality and Faithful PCs/Faithless. You as a player make these decisions for your characters. If your character starts to think 'wow, these guys got some really nice things that would look really nice on me', then I'd say that your character might start having some IC heart-to-hearts in the mirror about their own attitude and outlook and if they should change to get new, shiny clothes. Because RP.

        As Sundren is a Faction Oriented Server, so to are the rewards going to swing more favorably for those that find a faction. It promotes RP on a much larger and more in depth scale than an outsider can. So we like to provide incentives. And as it turns out, that's also how the role-play rolls in Sundren. It just makes sense.

        Again - a Faction less character is not nonviable. Just difficult. I speak from experience - my own playerside character is more or less Faction-less.

        On the flip side - there is a certain amount of respect given to PCs who stay true to their Faithless dogma and/or Faction Less ways. Because it's the road less traveled. Pros and cons.
        Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy.

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        • #5
          'Nonviable' was probably the incorrect term to use, in retrospect. Also, I understand the the server is undergoing a change in a lot of the settings, so it's likely the concept of a nonfaction store revamp was already placed on the floor. 'Difficult' may work in that regard. :P

          However, I'd like to contest that a price difference that that shifts from 'hundreds' to 'tens-of-thousands' in terms of cost is hardly a 'slight inconvenience' in terms of player dedication, and may even help breach the gap of availability between non-prime-time PCs being able to keep up with their more faction-laden brethren... in-faction or no. Likewise, it's not necessary that a +'X' item may be available to all, if mechanical significance is thus tied to faction... a +'X-1' option, even lacking the benefits of the faction-store version for the aforementioned greatly increased cost, would still give characters a particular goal of achievement, and thus interest.
          "I know that kind of man, it's hard to hold the hand of anyone, who is reaching for the sky just to surrender." ~ Leonard Cohen, The Stranger Song

          Samak Nerinide - Professional vagabond, arcane investigator, and expert drunkard.
          Ripentare - Living, breathing, Create Greater Undead, seeking the riddle of steel.
          Wylks Meshrunner - Self-proclaimed magehunter and former sky-pirate of Halruaa.

          Comment


          • #6
            Another factor you may want to keep in mind is Time.

            Creating items, editing stores and generally putting stuff into the toolset takes time.

            The Sundren staff is quite small, consisting of Saulus, GBX, Cornuto, myself, Poltergeist, Grinning Death, Catastrophe, Acorn, Toupon, BAMF, Incognito and Drifter. Alright, that's quite a few people but keep in mind that we've all got our own areas of work:

            Saulus and GBX do complex stuff that makes my brain itch.
            Toupon maps like a mo-fo. You can thank him for the sheer awesomeness of the new Sundren City maps and sewer tileset along with a heap of custom placables. He's hard at work on a stunning looking new area that'll be in game in the future.
            Cornuto DMs, Maps and does creatures and some stores - Mirakus Mines and it's mutated inhabitants, the new Blackwood store and other critters are his hard work. He also scripts and does that side of things. He's getting down with a new dungeon for ya'll at the moment.
            Cat's got game issues but that hasn't stopped her working up an array of funky items to get dropped in game by nefarious monsters.
            GD's attending the school for kids who can't read good and want to do other stuff good too, but he manages to squeeze in some time to write us sexy lore.
            BAMF, Incogneto, Drifter and the recently returned Acorn are the guys you'll see in game the most - Give these guys Kudos, they're doing a great job of running events and keeping the world alive. Seriously, Kudos them or I'll naughty step you. Drifter also does beering and toolset stuff.
            Polt is a man with a mission, he's often in game running stuff but he's also been a busy little bee in the toolset making changes and doing some great work on faction stores, plus he does scripting stuff such as the City Pass system, modifications to the death system and a load of other brain itching (to me) stuff. Send him your Kudos too.
            Me, I... Well.. I hang around on the forums and insult people. I also sideline in annoying people who work hard and do good things for the server (sorry!).

            So, out of that list we've got two people who're doing stores, and doing it in amongst other Sundren stuff that they can squeeze in amongst real obligations and pesky real life stuff. So send them all your Kudos.

            Where was I? Right. Time. Time is precious and often scant, things get picked up as they're seen to be needed. Redoing the stores is happening, but our focus as first store priority will always be the factions. Right now only some of the factions have had new stores, the remaining stores will be done before we move onto generalia. That's not to say that stores are even a top priority right now.

            TLDR: Factions are our first priority, the limited amount of staff time that we have will be spent focusing on the factions first with general stores possibly following on after. Don't expect general stores to have equipment as specialized, interesting or as potent as the faction stores. Also, our staff are a good bunch of people who work hard. Give them love.

            Apologies to any member of staff whose roles I understated or misquoted. Feel free to correct me!
            It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can only do a little - Do what you can.
            Sydney Smith.

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            • #7
              Blackwood store is Polt's sweat and tears, I just changed the look of the armor and got rid of the Xaayne boots.
              Originally posted by Saulus
              Stop playing other shitty MMOs and work on Sundren, asshole.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by drifter View Post
                'Nonviable' isn't what is happening with faction-less characters. 'Difficulties' is what is happening with faction-less characters. As it should be.

                The way I read it, you're simply suggesting a 'slight inconvenience' for faction-less characters so they can more or less be on par with Faction PCs after overcoming said 'slight inconveniences'.

                Faction-oriented characters will always be above-par when paired against Faction-less characters in terms of RP and Mechanical benefits, as the latter is a result of the former. As it should be. I would even compare it to the recent changes regarding Vitality and Faithful PCs/Faithless. You as a player make these decisions for your characters. If your character starts to think 'wow, these guys got some really nice things that would look really nice on me', then I'd say that your character might start having some IC heart-to-hearts in the mirror about their own attitude and outlook and if they should change to get new, shiny clothes. Because RP.

                As Sundren is a Faction Oriented Server, so to are the rewards going to swing more favorably for those that find a faction. It promotes RP on a much larger and more in depth scale than an outsider can. So we like to provide incentives. And as it turns out, that's also how the role-play rolls in Sundren. It just makes sense.

                Again - a Faction less character is not nonviable. Just difficult. I speak from experience - my own playerside character is more or less Faction-less.

                On the flip side - there is a certain amount of respect given to PCs who stay true to their Faithless dogma and/or Faction Less ways. Because it's the road less traveled. Pros and cons.
                Have to agree with all of this...In fact, the state of Non-faction characters is better than ever with all the new loot drops, and so many player stores in the Trade Post.

                As for those awesomely powerful items, well you'll probably have to take at least one Craft feat, and expend a ton of effort if you're a non-factionite to get them, which is how I at least think it should be

                EDIT: *Gives the staff a ton of love*

                *has now used his entire quota of love for the week, everyone else gets hate or apathy*
                UTC+8
                Yes, I realise my RP writing sucks. Just be thankful I keep it short

                Characters
                Thalanis Moonshadow

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