Frenzy

[JotunWarrior]

While playing my Frenzied Berserker, Xaayne, I realized that using Frenzy in any situation is basically a prelude to your character exploding from the 6 damage/round combined with the -4 ac. Since Frenzying is a guarantee that you're going to take a lot of hits, I figured I'd suggest that frenzy grants you FB-level in Damage Reduction for the duration.Overall you'd be countering the fatigue, -4 ac and 6 damage/round with 10 DR, +10 str, +6 con, and an extra attack for a few rounds with 10 levels of investment. You'd still be taking more hits, but they'd be less effective against you on account of the murderous frenzy.

I realize this isn't a PnP thing (as far as I know, anyways), but playing a class that focuses around a single activated ability isn't much fun when the activated ability kills you in 98% of situations on the server. Something similar wouldn't hurt Barbarians either.

Anyways, what do people think about this? Would something along these lines even be possible? Is there a better way to make Frenzy useful?

[ManUtd4Ever]

I could see this if one used the same logic that provides Barbarians damage reduction. But using that same logic would require the DR to be limited to something reasonable like 5/DR... a 19th level Barbarian receives 5/DR.

My 20th Dwarven Defender has a 10/DR, but that is because he took two Sundren custom racial feats (4/DR) and then ten PrC levels of Stalwart Defender (6/DR). Stalwart Defenders are some of the most "defensive" melee characters in the game. Great AC with typically poor ABs. But I gladly sacrifice my ability to dish out damage for the ability to survive. Giving an FB 10/DR, albeit temporarily, allows them both.

Cheers

[roguethree]

The class is centered around the doubled Power Attack damage and Supreme Cleave. The FB Frenzy also gets an extra attack, which is huge; I don't think it should have DR. Rather, the ability should be applied judiciously.

I would, however, be on board with eliminating the damage/round aspect of the Frenzy and giving Barbarians DR when raging, equal to 1/2 levels.

[JotunWarrior]

The DR is still coupled with -4 AC on a class that pretty much always ignores shields and Combat Expertise. The 6/round also ignores all DR. Incase you've failed to notice, the typical enemy on Sundren has a massive AB. Frenzying Xaayne, solo, will still lose to a Bloodmaim Sapper, simply because his AC will be something like 32 during a frenzy and he'll take an additional 6 damage a round. FB's don't exist in vaccuums, they exist in a place where everything can hit them a steady 56% of the time even when they aren't frenzying.

[roguethree]

The DR is still coupled with -4 AC on a class that pretty much always ignores shields and Combat Expertise.

If you built Fighter into FB, then you have the option to use a shield, you have the option to take Combat Expertise and even Improved Combat Expertise to use when situations call for it. That you choose not to is not an indication of the PrC's capabilities.

The Frenzied Berserker is the very best damage dealer in the game. Double Power Attack damage, Great Cleave, and Supreme Cleave are absolutely devastating to the PvE content. That the class is susceptible to weapon damage is balance, and even that can be mitigated through thoughtful construction.

[Cornuto]

Aren't combat expertise and power attack mutually exclusive?

[roguethree]

That doesn't change what I said or the context in which it was said in the slightest.

[Cornuto]

The feat can't be used in conjunction with what you identify as a core aspect of the class.

I don't see why we would balance the class around the possibility that a frenzied berzerker would take combat expertise when it'd be a really dumb (IMO) feat to take. If someone wants to whip up a combat expert frenzy berzerker build that rules the server and prove me wrong go for it. I'll admit to not being the greatest at power building.

I agree with you that the class is basically all-out offense and high damage, and that lack of defense is to a large extent a built-in balance.

I disagree with the implication that combat expertise somehow expands upon the classes' capabilities.

[Seheren]

I feel that giving a boost to the Barbarian class could mitigate this issue. If you went 10/10 Barbarian FB, but got more for those 10 Barbarian levels, then that is a big improvement! The Fighter class already adds a lot, as R3 has stated.

On another note, what if FB was given Barbarian DR advancement, so that if you did go 10/10 split you would have the same DR as a full Barbarian. I realize that makes it less likely for people to go full barbarian, but if the changes to barbarian were geared towards higher barbarian levels it could be a trade off.

[Cornuto]

I feel that giving a boost to the Barbarian class could mitigate this issue. If you went 10/10 Barbarian FB, but got more for those 10 Barbarian levels, then that is a big improvement!

I know Polt's talked about wanting to do this -- maybe add some modified rage powers.

[roguethree]

I disagree with the implication that combat expertise somehow expands upon the classes' capabilities.

How does having the option of picking up a heavy/tower shield and toggling combat expertise for 5 - 13 (pending magical shield and Improved Expertise) more AC not expand upon the class's capabilities?

Yes, the class is designed to be extra nasty with Power Attack. However, that doesn't mean the FB should be modified so that they can shove that square peg into every round hole on the server. It is a prestige class with a very specific skill set, and its weaknesses are quite ably shored up through base classes.

Fighters already cycle between wearing and not wearing shields and using power attack/combat expertise and not. Frenzied Berserkers aren't special. Build so that you can survive some situations, thrive in others. FB doesn't need help.

[Torgar]

If you give FB the DR advancement track that goes with Barbarian, then NO ONE is going to go full barbarian ever again, because there is absolutely no benefit to it over FB. You'd have frenzy, which already gives an additional attack, double power attack, supreme cleave, and then the same DR as a full barbarian on top of that? No, in my opinion, that simply will not work.

In my opinion, FB is honestly solid enough. You have a class that can hit a 34 or 36 strength without much problem, gets at least 5 attacks a round at level 20, two of them at full bonus, and they take a -6 penalty to add +24 damage to their two-handed attacks. That they take a -4 to ac and take some paltry damage is pretty small price for all that. Besides all that, they should have a caster of some sort behind them by the time they are finishing the class anyways any time they go into a dungeon, so all those buffs that go on top of it will more then make up for minor damage and -4 AC.

[Cornuto]

Yes, the class is designed to be extra nasty with Power Attack. However, that doesn't mean the FB should be modified so that they can shove that square peg into every round hole on the server. It is a prestige class with a very specific skill set, and its weaknesses are quite ably shored up through base classes.

I'm not advocating buffing the class. I just don't see combat expertise as being any sort of a good fit with it.

Fighters already cycle between wearing and not wearing shields and using power attack/combat expertise and not. Frenzied Berserkers aren't special. Build so that you can survive some situations, thrive in others. FB doesn't need help.

Where do you see them thriving?

[Infallius_Daemonium]

If you give FB the DR advancement track that goes with Barbarian, then NO ONE is going to go full barbarian ever again, because there is absolutely no benefit to it over FB.

I don't mean to be argumentative but does that matter?

Up until the changes to fighter there was no mechanical reason to be a pure fighter. Just like right now there's no mechanical reason to be a pure wizard... or rogue, etc. Before Hand of Mundus was made a class Das was only a pure wizard because the other, obviously more powerful options, didn't make sense for her.

Prestige classes more often than not are taken because they are simply better than sticking with just your base class.

[JotunWarrior]

That the class is susceptible to weapon damage is balance, and even that can be mitigated through thoughtful construction.

You seem to be forgetting they're also extremely vulnerable to: Everything. Seriously, at level 20 you're talking about a class with a will save of...nine? They have no immunities (Except for Death ward for the 3-7 rounds they're frenzying). They've got low AC almost universally, HiPSters will demolish them with range or death attacks, even grease can practically remove them from a fight. Sure you can hit hard, but eight out of ten times you won't have the option to hit hard because surprise! you're already out of the fight.