Dungeon Balancing

[prismaticcrow]

I have to say Laurk had somewhat convinced me. I wouldn't mind seeing a dungeon built the way that he describes, and really what is the harm? If Laurk is willing to build a new separate dungeon and add it somewhere into the server, why not? Who cares if its built different than the other ones, so long as it's fun and it works and the rewards are balanced to be on par with everything else. What's the harm in adding another dungeon? Maybe we'll learn a thing or two about dungeon design while we're at it.

[FriendlyNecromancer]

Frankly, you wouldn't see blaster mages even if Sundren had mobs with reduced HP for a single reason, vancian casting was not made at all to support multiple encounters with a small number of mobs/rest, and that is the reality with most NWN servers. You just will never have enough spells/day for that until the very high levels, which is why pure mages must become buffbots with extended or 1 hour/level buffs if they want to contribute. Reserve feats would be a solution, but they were already shot down by the Staff from what I believe.
Also, real time combat is very bad for blaster mages since without pausing/turn based combat all those friendly fire spells become worthless. You are either pretty much casting Firebrand or nothing as far as aoe spells go.
2H Fighters with power attack and high STR however are very good, especially when buffed.
And yeah, barbarians are pretty much worthless outside of rp reasons when compared to what Fighters get here in Sundren. Rogues have the potential to shine at later levels depending on faction gear but are very boring to level.

[Fuzziebunny]

I am not so sure I buy that clerics are either buff bots or tanks. I play a cleric and I would not say that my cleric is either of those. I do however love the idea of a new dungeon. Laurk if you build it I most certainly would come.

[Laurk]

Only that buff bots are "optimal" for sundren's current dungeon balancing fuzzie. Lots of us don't play optimized PCs.

[GodBeastX]

Frankly, you wouldn't see blaster mages even if Sundren had mobs with reduced HP for a single reason, vancian casting was not made at all to support multiple encounters with a small number of mobs/rest, and that is the reality with most NWN servers. You just will never have enough spells/day for that until the very high levels, which is why pure mages must become buffbots with extended or 1 hour/level buffs if they want to contribute. Reserve feats would be a solution, but they were already shot down by the Staff from what I believe.
Also, real time combat is very bad for blaster mages since without pausing/turn based combat all those friendly fire spells become worthless. You are either pretty much casting Firebrand or nothing as far as aoe spells go.
2H Fighters with power attack and high STR however are very good, especially when buffed.
And yeah, barbarians are pretty much worthless outside of rp reasons when compared to what Fighters get here in Sundren. Rogues have the potential to shine at later levels depending on faction gear but are very boring to level.

This x100.

The problem isn't that dungeons all need to be HUGE DAMAGE and LOW HP!

It's that every dungeon shouldn't be the same and require the same dyanmics.

Fact is, I have a big todo list to fix dungeons and get them in line, as well as quests where you face one encounter and get rewarded.

TODO LIST HUGE!

GBX ONE MAN!

[sonuvalich]

TODO LIST HUGE!

GBX ONE MAN!

We all know GBX is worth a dozen mortal men, quit the denial!

[Torgar]

I've played 4 clerics to level 18+, and each one has been different. I've had a nuker, a tank, a healer, and a buff bot, and I was equally valid in all four roles. You're problem playing the healer isn't that it's balanced for tanks, it's that almost all the tanks right now are PALADINS. Who don't really need a healer. They can Lay on hands themselves (heh) and heal, usually enough to survive the entire dungeon at near full hp. Not to mention the innate DR they get at 17 and the improvement to it at 20. Trust me, try doing a high level dungeon run without a paladin in the party, and you will see that healers are more needed, the buffs matter a lot more, nuking is pivotal.

No one plays one really, but you COULD have a barbarian as your frontline tank. I have one. Even with high DR for being a dwarf, I would need a healer full time to stay alive. The dungeons' aren't "balanced for tanks" the dungeons just weren't made to deal with Paladins with pathfinder abilities. All our dungeons were made with 3.5 D&D in mind, not pathfinder. Try running a RL campaign sometime from 3.5 D&D with Pathfinder characters, and you'll see what I mean. You will completely roll over every single encounter like it's nothing, because every class (Except for druid) got stronger or more balanced. The dynamics work better.

And the way to beat a tank is number of attacks. The more attacks something gets, the more often the tank is getting hit. Because if they only have a 5% chance to hit regardless, then just increase their damage and number of attacks and the tanks will notice it. However, if they did that, then anyone who ISN"T a high AC tank would melt faster then any healer could heal them.

Sometimes you just can't balance things to be equally good against everyone. Oh well.

[GodBeastX]

Torgar, you get it

The idea I wanted to do in dungeon design that we didn't quite do right is that there would be difficulties for encounters with higher rewards for picking the harder path and more party friendly path.

What actually happened is, all these mobs just got mixed together along the same dungeon paths, which is fine for iteration one, but iteration two needs to take them into account, then you will see more need for party dynamics.

"Okay, unless you are absolutely high AC, you can't tank this, but tank isn't doing enough area damage to handle this situation, so we need a strategic fireball there when this happens, and that guy way back there is just going to range us, so we need a sniper or warlock or something."

That's the idea. I didn't want people not to be able to solo, even bards, but I didn't want to make it where there was no challenge.

The green, blue, red, etc creatures were literally "Solo, Kinda Solo, Hard to Solo, Can't Solo".

It just needs someone to sit down, re-evaluate, do some scripting and planning, and get things right Problem is, DMs have luxury of time to plan ONE encounter for their group. We gotta plan entire dungeons of them

[Lotus]

I didn't want people not to be able to solo, even bards, but I didn't want to make it where there was no challenge.

If ever there was a class that didn't need nobody else, it was the bard.

[GodBeastX]

And to top this off, this is part of the design problem with D&D 3E which was the ONLY part they got right in 4E.

Healers are safety nets when shit gets wrong or refreshers. Having someone dedicated to just that role is functionally bad design. It's like having someone in Super Mario whose job is to hand you an extra life every time you fall into a pit.

Healing in itself is a viable thing to make up for problems in execution, but reality is, people should be thinking strategically to minimalize damage so that healers don't HAVE to heal.

Nobody's plan should be "Let's take a lot of damage so healer has something to do". It should be "Let's make the healer's job easy this time guys."

And D&D's slot-based magic casting is a big thorn in my side. It forces people into pre-determined role of engagement before a fight breaks out. Being able to adapt and change is important.

[Laurk]

A barbarian would get shredded in any dungeon unless they had a cleric to buff the heck out of them AND heal them constantly. Infact a healer wouldn't be able to do much for them because id be healing them nearly every round and would blow through my healing spells quick. It would take a barbarian "far" too long to kill anything and thus he would be taking heavy damage every round. Monsters have too many HP for a heavy hitter to be anywhere on par with a tank in combat. That not to say you can't fit into a group and feel useful. But you certainly won't be as useful as a tank.

However, if they did that, then anyone who ISN"T a high AC tank would melt faster then any healer could heal them.

Everything that isn't a tank already has this problem. Its basic math. If it takes you 5 rounds to kill a monster because it has high HP, that's 5 rounds you're getting clobbered because of your low AC which the tank is not because of his high AC. If you up the # of attacks but the damage is still low, its still predictable, boring combat because the tanks just needs to drink more potions, but is never in any real danger. Either way the support is screwed if it gets Agro. The only way to mitigate this is to have monsters who you can drop before they can bring the pain. Baddies with low HP make it easier to pull baddies off your squishys since their low HP means they only get a hit or two in before they are dead. Currently if a monster changes agro to Abby, im pretty well doomed unless I go invis, because even with the whole party pounding on her aggressor, im only going to last a few rounds. The same goes for squishy rogues & wizards who aren't AC builds.

While blaster mages certainly can't unload a barage in every encounter in a dungeon, even with low HP monsters, when you have a fireball that starts an encounter by reducing the enemy group by 50% of its HP instead of 5%, that is a significant up in the usefullness of blasting spells. Esspecially when dropping said encounter before they reach the tank great improves the group's chances of survival. You could, for example, put greese on the ground and hit an encounter with 2 fireballs, wiping most of them out before they close to melee range. If the trouble is, your fighters are charging forward without letting you cast AoE spells first, then imagine how much easier it will be to talk them into hanging back to let the support soften up their foes when said foes can kick the crap out of them?

Right now, blaster mages who use straight damage spells are more of a decoration than an intrinsicly neccessary part of the group. They cannot do a high enough % of damage to really alter an encounter in a way that is more significant than if they just rolled up another tank to throw into melee. Some dungeons have only a couple dozen encounters, and a high level mage should be able to conserve enough magic to play a pivitol roll in it with blasting magic if that magic can actually make a significant dent in a monster's HP.

But like the infinitly wise GBX said, the problem isn't the server being all one way or another, its that it could use more dungeon diversity so that people who like dungeon dynamics one way can do that dungeon, those who want something differant can try another.

edit for recent comments I missed: A dedicated healer is totally bad design unless PCs are in over their heads. But in a glass-cannon sort of dungeon, she still wouldn't be needed all the time unless the support PCs weren't doing their job and thinning the monsters out before they closed to melee. But boy would she be useful in those few situations where things just go wrong and the fireball completely misses, or the archer gets paralzyed and the fighter winds up with five mutated Orogs playing a drum solo on his helmet with spiked mauls. Really its a simliar dynamic, just puts a little more weight on the need for effective support, allowing them to be more impactful. In a current dungeon, my dedicated healer always saves people a lot of coin because they don't have to drink potions, but she's usually vital a couple times. Once or twice in encounters, and once in a boss fight. I think in a more heavy hitter, low HP balanced dungeon, this wouldn't change "that" much, id just have to be on my toes a lot more because of the unpredictable nature of combat in that dynamic. You never know when you'll be needed, and the other support would be more useful. Its just a bit more exciting than the more predictable nature of watching tanks take a small steady bit of damage and having each encounter take roughly the same amount of rounds to win.

[GodBeastX]

None of my boss designs really include "Just fight one guy until dead". Those are essentially the place holders until I finish these dungeons.

[Torgar]

Ok, a few points I need to make.

1. If your barbarian is taking 5 rounds to kill any SINGLE person that isn't a red or higher level mob, you have made him wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

2. Blaster mages are HUGE difference makers in the amount of damage a team takes. Just one well placed "Firebrand" or "Chain LIghtning" and all of a sudden, the 8 person mob you are fighting are all at 2/3 or 1/2 hp. That's a huge decrease in the overall damage the group will take, simply because now every creature in the fight will die way faster.

3. I agree with Lotus, Bards more then any other class do not need ANYONE to be stupidly powerful. They have the perfect mix of buff's with their songs to solo every dungeon by themselves without to much problem. High AC mob? Just drop it's AC by 9 with curse song, taunt, and curse of impending blades. High damage mobs? Just put on AC song and song of heroism and watch all the whiffs. Lot of attackers? Just use displacement and mirror image. Getting chased? You have the longest non-persisted speed buff in the game with Allegro.

Barbarians are high strength, high damage, high HP front liners with the capability of putting out insane non-crit damage. Add to that the DR that no one gets through, and you have someone who can actually survive a lot of punishment before he goes down.


Five rounds for a Barbarian to kill someone. PFFT, as if.

[Lothoir]

Just to throw this in: Learn to juggle aggro, don't lock yourself into a role, and don't do what you can't. I have a low AC dual wielding ranger, and he does great in groups for two simple reasons: He doesn't lead charges, he uses a longbow until I know he can safely jump in and decimate the enemies, and he doesn't try to tank. Let the tank tank.

[BubbaCornbread]

First, my main toon uses a falchion so no shield and he survives, so not everyone makes characters with shields. Second, I agree with Torgar, if your barb doesn't kill quickly then. You made a mistake building him, third, you should not be mobbed if you use doors and other choke points to channel the enemy. Some of the best RP revolved a dungeon crawl with one low ac tank and support and using chokepoints.