Dungeon Balancing

[Lotus]

It's one of the only places I feel I didn't waste 20 levels in Ranger

I'm just going to undo the Ranger changes.

[Valhalla]

It's one of the only places I feel I didn't waste 20 levels in Ranger ><

...What. Ranger is an amazing class post-changes. People just need to realize that a ranger's function will almost* never involve tanking. You're either a HiPSing melee dervish of destruction, or a HiPSing ranged manyshotting badass.

HiPS is your AC. Or, as an archer, HiPS and distance.


*I really want to say never here but I can't account for silly builds so there you go.

[BubbaCornbread]

I think the dungeon balancing has been done fairly well and maybe a few tweaks can be put in, but I doubt they are necessary.

Some EQ (regen rings) have made healers less valuable, but they are still valuable. Some of the dungeons and creatures do a massive amount of damage, especially if you are surrounded and thus heal pots or healers are necessary. Clerics also bring with them many blessings that can help a party and a tank. I am not only talking about those buffs that help with AB or AC, but also ones that will stop a mob quickly. I encourage clerics that feel they are left out, to use all the blessings they have that can tip the scale for a group.

As to tanks, we have come a long way from the old days when clerics basically were the tank and ruled all and the fighter, unless super buffed, died quickly. I like the changes overall to all the classes and look forward to more RP and new dungeons.

And, playing a ranger many, many times with many different types, I agree with Valhalla. Rangers are made to be support characters and in the right setting, can provide an awesome amount of firepower for a group. I liken them to current military where they are the overwatch. They take a high point somewhere behind the group and destroy creatures or at least thin them out before they reach the group. The tanks and others them mop them up.

[Phantom Lamb]

Pfft. Fighters don't need any support. Silly Bubba.

[Laurk]

I don't know if Phantom Lamb was being sarcastic or not, but its been my experiance that paladins and fighters really don't need support. In one dungeon, my healer "might" be useful once or twice, but is rarley criticle save for the worst of cases where someone gets double critted. If doubtful makes a glass cannon dungeon, I think that'll change.

[Doubtful]

I suspect the main change will be more complaints about tpks, but hey ho. Vitality means nothing if you don't loose some occasionally.

[thaelis]

I'm just going to undo the Ranger changes.

Well, I haven't been there since the changes, or anywhere in fact since I'm in Bali right now

I imagine inside areas will be much less suicidal now.

I wasn't trying to have a stab at anyone Lotus, I just meant that trapped area is the only time I can think of that my Ranger wasn't the party's weakest link. I was attempting to give Kudos sorry if it came off wrong. The class changes are of course greatly appreciated!!

[BubbaCornbread]

I think someone missed one of my primary points. As a cleric, yes, you are a healer, but you also have a ton of other spells that can help a party. Spells that disable, stun, and also kill.

If you scope your cleric to only be a pacifist and a healer, then I don't think you can expect the entire community to change dungeons so that you get your fix. I do not mean to be blunt, but there have been many changes over the years and I think we are at a good place with Sundren. We have gone back and forth about dungeons and balancing and if someone creates a niche character, hey, you are niche and may not fit in the whole scheme.

[Laurk]

That's true, and im not asking for the entire community to change because that would be silly. What I "am" asking for however, is one or two dungeons with some glass-cannons for the sake of variety and for the sake of making support characters more relivant and useful.

"Everyone" plays the kind of cleric you're proposing. In part, because its the only relivant sort of cleric. If you can't buff and tank, you aren't adding much. To me, buffing is boring, and I don't want to play a tank. Been there done that. I like playing healers because when needed (and it does happen occassionally) its the most exciting class because you have more preassure to do a good job than any other PC. If I mess up, my pals die.

Sundren may have been doing this for a long time, however im betting you guys haven't yet tried out what im talking about. People complain because they can't reasonably play straight rogues, barbarians and I know from experiance there aren't many straight blaster mages. Nearly everyone is a tank, or asks for class changes to make non-tank classes more tankish (or able to avoid getting hit as per HiPs). This is all because monsters have a ton of HP. If you're a high AC tank, or can HiPs and relocate, no problem. If you're not, you can contribute "very" little. You can't drop one of our monsters here fast enough to avoid getting pounded if you're a blaster mage, a rogue or a barbarian. And so you have to multi-class or ask for class changes that give you more and easier ways to avoid getting pounded by the monsters you don't have the AC to be able to deal with. You have to become more tankish to be relivant.

Monsters with less HP is the answer. If rogues, barbarians and blaster mages can drop monsters "before" they get killed, than they become useful. its really that simple. Even a straight rogue can backstab one of those crazy orogs and kill it to help the tank who is getting pounded on. His sneak attack becomes more valuable. However if you don't raise the monster's AB and damage, than the tank becomes OP.

Its a very common trend on servers to increase difficulty by inflating monster's HP and AC. Over and over ive seen this lead to the predominance of the buffing caster and tank. Ive seen several servers turn it around by increasing AB and DPS on monsters instead of HP & AC to bring back variety of classes and usefullness of support. Forgotten Realms Cormyr in NWN1 is a great example. They retooled their monsters for this sort of dynamic and they are still going strong to this day with a wide variety of PC classes. I played a high damage, low AC warrior their for a long time, and it worked great. My PC was easily as relivant as high AC tanks.

Like all things its in how you balance.

[and break 12345]

[Edited Because There Wasn't Anything Useful to Say]

-GD

[Laurk]

We have a CHA based dungeon going into Port Avanthyr pretty soon

[Lotus]

Not that I'm aware of. Am I missing something?

Brothel jokes are over my head.

[Kitsunestume]

We have a CHA based dungeon going into Port Avanthyr pretty soon

You mean the sociopolitical dynamic wasn't already a CHA-based dungeon with a decent chance of permadeath?

[BubbaCornbread]

Ok, still did not get it. Clerics do not have to be buff machines, tanks, or healers. They actually have a wide variety of spells that most people never bother to use that can change battle dynamics. Furthermore, I have played almost every support character on sundren and that is what they are in most dungeon settings. The rogue sneaks around and backstabs, usually doing more damage than the fighter, the bowman mows down creatures or thins them out before they hit the party, the bard provides bonuses and their own spells to the mix, all the while the tank is hopefully holding the hordes in place so that all can do their part. Old AD&D - balanced parties always survive.

[Laurk]

Its certainly playable Mr. Cornbread. Its certainly fun and of course a balanced party is nice. People often make non-ideal PCs just because they want too play something differant. But overall, the server "is" balanced for tanks. Thats why so many threads crop up where support classes are asking for things to make them more optamised for our particular balance. More ways to avoid getting killed in long, protracted combat because monsters have so many HP.

So while we still do see balanced parties because people "want" to play something other than tanks now and then, even if its not optimal, ask yourself if a classic D&D group on Sundren would be better off than a group of tanks? Is that rogue's sneak attack or barbarians power attack that deals 10-15% of a monster's HP worth his low AC that will get him killed if agro changes to him? What if that attack did closer to 75%, or could kill it outright? Now AC isn't so much of a factor see? A tank is still important, its just not the "only" way to approach encounters. This unlocks far more "optimal" classes.

Ask yourself, save for the occassional locked door, is there any party of 4 that would be better off having something other than 4 high AC tanks (cleric or otherwise)? In every group I travel with, unless the PCs have low ACs, they would ALWAYS be better off if Abby was gone, and another high AC tank was there in her place. Locked doors seem to be the only real reason to bring a rogue, people just walk across traps.

Some of the boss fights might be the exception, but why? Becauses bosses can deal a lot of damage, even to the tank, and this brings out the need for support classes to support the tank. These are the fights where a healer is vital. A glass cannon dungeon can fullfill this same dynamic but with encounters so that those support PCs are always absolutly necessary and you might actualy be better off with classic D&D than 4 tanks.

If monsters take a long time to kill because they have tons of HP, the obvious class of choice is a PC who can survive a long protracted battle because his AC is super high. That means any PC without that high AC is not going to be as effective.

That's why we don't see any barbarians, 2-hander fighters, or blaster mages. Its why healers aren't "crucial" to survival for high AC groups.

Please don't take it as trash talking Sundren, I do love this server and its my choice. These are just my thoughts on overall dungeon balancing and how it affects party dynamics.