Dungeon Balancing

[OnyxTigress]

Best way to tank this guy is hit prevention - AC - Displacement - Mirror Image.

Well aware, but that still doesn't do much good against crits.

Quick edit: I've no issues with the daily guys, by the by.

[Laurk]

Ya that guy is a little extreme. I cast Regeneration on Michael. During the fight, hit him with Greater Restoration, and immediatly clicked it again to fire off a second Greater Restoration. Before 6 second had passed, before my 2nd greater Restoration went off, he was dead.

But I wouldn't mind seeing a dungeon filled with baddies who could deal damage close to that (maybe a little toned down) but who only had around 100 hp and a little less AC. That way a powerful 2 hander barbarian could potentially kill it before it even landed a hit, or an archer before it got to you. That would be a cool sort of monster that would really make support characters vital to a dungeon romp instead of everyone wanting to be a tank. At least a dungeon or two like.

[Mournas]

Well aware, but that still doesn't do much good against crits.

Quick edit: I've no issues with the daily guys, by the by.

Concealment Checks occur before Mirror Image and AC - So all of your Mirror Images become Displaced - You should be practically untouchable. *Psst: I wouldn't mind if you fixed this - I have been griping about it for ages!*

[Jai_V]

But I wouldn't mind seeing a dungeon filled with baddies who could deal damage close to that (maybe a little toned down) but who only had around 100 hp and a little less AC. That way a powerful 2 hander barbarian could potentially kill it before it even landed a hit, or an archer before it got to you. That would be a cool sort of monster that would really make support characters vital to a dungeon romp instead of everyone wanting to be a tank. At least a dungeon or two like.

So, basically, some glass-cannon mobs. I kinda agree with Laurk on that.

[Laurk]

I think glass-cannon (well said jai-V) are the key to making every kind of class valuable in a group. Its the reason those low levels are so much fun. A half dozen orcs with a great axes may only have 6 hp each, but damn... if they land a crit or even a solid hit: ouch. I love the thrill you get in a new group trying to drop as many as you can with arrows, axes and magic missiles before they get to you, and the nervousness of the combat as your fighter skirts death to kill the last of them. He looses 50%+ of his HP with each it, and the cleric has to be right there to save his butt with a cure spell.

Fast, unpredictable and exciting combat where every round counts and tactics and formation decide the battle, as opposed to sitting back watching the tanks kill everything while getting a slow stream of minor wounds that they can easily handle with potions.

I know that PWs where you can't always find a group can't all be like this, but I would love a couple dungeons filled with glass cannons for a real furious and challenging dungeon experiance when you've got a good group.

[Doubtful]

Could be a laugh, I'll pencil that type of potentially hilarious tpk dungeoneering in for either Scary Ixis or project doom.

Honestly, I will finish them one day.

[sonuvalich]

Its the reason those low levels are so much fun. A half dozen orcs with a great axes may only have 6 hp each, but damn... if they land a crit or even a solid hit: ouch. I love the thrill you get in a new group trying to drop as many as you can with arrows, axes and magic missiles before they get to you, and the nervousness of the combat as your fighter skirts death to kill the last of them.

I see two fundamental problems with trying to get that low level rush at high levels. First, the D&D system has this inherent level disparity that makes those sorts of combats very unlikely at higher levels. Casters start getting instant death effects, d10 and d12 monsters start getting insane hps, the gear gets silly, etc. etc. etc. It becomes much, much harder to create a fight with a sense of danger instead of a TPK.

Second, NWN is not really turn based. I run into problems all the time with spells disrupted because an archer is hitting me with arrows every 3 seconds, where in P&P I could eat the volley of arrows THEN cast without trouble (unless he readied an attack to interrupt casting, in which case kudos to him for thinking tactically!) At low levels, the real time nature of the game feels more turn based because monsters typically get one attack, pause a few seconds, then go again. Once things get high BAB it seems like the damage is almost a continuum (assuming multiple assailants). This can make healing or crowd control very difficult, because you have to wait for that animation to tick off and the spell effect to land, meanwhile your tanky friend is still getting blended.

I don't disagree with you, I enjoy the combat more at low to mid levels before things get all super hero/super villain silliness, but I think trying to make higher level combats feel like them is akin to having a gentleman's duel with miniguns. And now I am picturing Doubt with a minigun mowing down all our characters....

[Laurk]

If it helps, ive played on servers that did it extremely well. Its all the same principal anyway. So long as the baddies do a ton of damage and can hit our high AC tanks regularly, but can be dropped in a round or two, you can absolutly achieve that low level feel at high levels. I have seen it done, and done well.

Maybe a dungeon with packs of Sundrite infected mutant orogs or something who hunt in groups of 5 or 6. Because they are sickly, they have very low con, however they also have freakish strength and favor mauls and great axes and go absolutly banannas wheneverer they see someone, flying into berserker rages. Now its swinging with a 35+ AB and dealing 40-50 damage per hit (crit for 100ish), but has an AC of only around 30 and maybe a hair over 100-150 hp. You can drop them fast, and you better hope you've brought archers and blaster mages to divide their group an thin the ranks before these bruisers close to melee range, because you're going to need some first aid when they reach the meat shield.

Sure high level mages get instant death spells, but so what, at low levels, a burning hands or magic missle spell is an instant death spell against goblins. Nothing changes. The reason why D&D gets a bit more preditable and borning as you go in level is because HP quickly outpace damage output. I.e. It takes a lot more hits per % of HP to kill you and them. The way dungeons are structured now, the average hit I see our tanks taking is less than a 2nd level fighter taking 1 damage per hit. It makes for predictable, unchallenging combat. Now I know that rogues and other squishy's would get massacured, but to me, that seems appropriate. I mean I play without question, the weakest PC on Sundren for for combat. Abby's AC is right around 23 and ive got 130 hp at level 19. But then, I "depend" on the tank to keep the baddies off my healer, and I would love a dungeon or two where our tank absolutly depended on Abby to keep them alive.

When you first start D&D, weapons deal 50% of a PC's HP on a good hit. cure spells cure 75%-100% of a PC's hp in one spell. Magic missles and arrows can deal 50% to 75% of a monster's hp. Now Id be looking for monsters who can easily deal 25% of the tanks HP in a single round or more w/ crits. But who could be dropped in 2 rounds themselvs to achieve a good high level balance.

Ill say this, if you run willy nill in at first level, PC's TPK. However if you use bottlenecks and sound tactics, you can survive. To me combat absolutly MUST be challenging and have a risk of death, or else its nothing more than a pointless excersize to get you up in levels and buy good gear so you can be good in PvP. I have very little fun in combat if I don't need to be on my toes, saving lives. I can't imagine im alone here.

[Doubtful]

Dungeon design with a serious risk of a tpk for an experienced group.

See, I like this. If we can automate killing everyone then things become a lot easier fo the DMs. Laurk, you've made me get out the pencils.

[GodBeastX]

Not a fan being honest.

[Raksha]

The other issue is that high-level characters have a much wider potential breadth of ability. Which is, of course, one of the things that makes them fun. But a first-level fighter and a first-level wizard can have melee attacks that are actually not so far apart. But at level 20, the difference between 'powerbuilt strong class' and 'non-powerbuilt weak class' can be pretty mathematically ridiculous. Like 35 AC vs 65, or +45 to attack versus +25.

As for the specific issue of finding a place for healers, NWN2 strongly favors characters that avoid taking regular damage. Boosting monster damage high enough to seriously threaten Mirror Image Displaced Andelain will reduce Johanna to chunklets in about half a second.

That said, I've seen specific niche mobs that have done similar things. For instance, I recall little magical disruptions that fired disjunctions but had, like, 40 hit points. You needed ranged damage to eliminate them or they would turn your buffbot tanks into characters that need regular healing. Or, in NWN2 terms, dead.

[Raksha]

Double post: to contribute to this thread in a meaningful way, the courtyard encounter of Argyle Keep currently seems a wee bit overtuned. The way the spawns are laid out, any non-ranged group is going to be taking fire from about 8 auto-fire-crossbow archers and tangling with 10-12 foot troops in the courtyard. It's really awesome fun for characters that outlevel the content, but I'm worried it's too punishing for the seemingly intended range of 15-18ish.

The encounters throughout the keep, on the other hand, are superbly balanced. Archers are frequent enough to be a threat without being punitive, and proper preparation nullifies a lot of the trap threat. In fact, I'd say, a little too much. I'd advise making a few of the traps, say, ILMS traps so that a character with Evasion and high reflex doesn't just trot over them like Adama does. Either you disarm them or you staple Abby to your arm.

Also, climactic boss encounter in the upper courtyard / tower? Pweeeaase? *Big begging eyes.* It just screams for it.

[Laurk]

Ive been to that courtyard at Argyle Keep twice. Once was really fun because I was with clan Stonewall and they were taking a lot of damage. I had to really work to keep them alive, and we won in the end save for one person who wouldn't let Abby heal her.

The second time I went, I was with Alianna and Julia, and Abby might as well have been a familiar you leave at the area transition for the stat boost. I think they only got hit a couple times throughout the whole thing. I did get to heal them a bit running over lightning traps though. That time was fun RP, but boring combat.

So ive played on many servers, and on a few, there was always 1 or 2 crazy dungeons that very few groups could tackle and it was a point of pride to beat it. On FRC for NWN1, we had this black tower with a crazy dragon at the top, and I was among one of the first groups to reach the top and actually kill it. It was massivly exciting to be a part of that. Sea of dragons had a crazy trap laden temple that led to the underdark that was nearly imposssible to get through, but I was in a group that actually did survive it, (and many that didnt.) and that was also exciting. Every server needs a variety of dungeons to suit the variety of PCs, but I really do think there needs to be at least 1 or 2 places that are a massive challenge.

Obviously I don't want dungeons to be auto-death. But the character of choice on Sundren seems to be the tank. You could make a super challenging dungeon that really brought out the need for support types of PCs by making a glass-cannon, tank-busting sort of monster. I can't wait to see what you cook up Doubtful!

[thaelis]

I'd advise making a few of the traps, say, ILMS traps so that a character with Evasion and high reflex doesn't just trot over them like Adama does. Either you disarm them or you staple Abby to your arm.

But...the only purpose of Evasion and Improved Evasion is against traps like these!!

I love areas with high DC traps like those. It's one of the only places I feel I didn't waste 20 levels in Ranger ><

[Jhickey]

I love seeing the traps, and when playing on my rogue alt. Although there are a few fire traps that are requiring a fort save and not Ref; that is a bit disheartening. I wish I could remember where they were.