Alchemical Weapons

[thaelis]

I noticed that alchemical stuff is pretty lame, and not really worth using.

Could we make it so that it is something more like how bandages work (dmg per round, ending when a Reflex save is made, max. 10 rounds, non-stackable)

I was thinking something like:

Alchemist Fire, 1d4 dmg, DC 15
Improved Fire, 1d6 dmg, DC 18
Greater Fire, 1d8 dmg, DC 21
Perfected Fire, 2d6 dmg, DC 24

I also think that the other types (Tanglefoot, Thunderstone etc) need a DC tweak, to be just slightly lower DC than offensive spells (which can reach the high 20's, even 30's). I just feel that atm once you are into mid-levels or higher they are just treasure to be sold and have little usability.

[Nascent_Legion]

I dunno, I think an alchemical item that has the potential to do 20d6 damage (Perfected fire at ten rounds of 2d6 each round) is actually way over the top. Alchemical items are supposed to be low dc because they are so inferior to actual spells, but they are better then nothing. Making them be only slightly less useful then spells just breaks the spirit of alchemical items, in my opninon.

[Kitsunestume]

I'm in agreement with Nascent Legion; Alchemy is poor-man's magic as it is, it isn't designed to replace magic at any point.

Alchemy or Magic?
[. . .]
Alchemical items must provide a wide variety of quasi-magical effects without duplicating or weakening the effects of magical abilities.
[. . .]
Most importantly, alchemical items shouldn't duplicate a spell effect, affect a large area, or impart a permanent benefit.

Changing alchemist fire along the lines you suggested would make Improved Alchemist fire on par with Combust, and Perfected Alchemist Fire considerably worse. Likewise, a tanglefoot bag would replace Entangle in terms of DC, if not duration.

I think the only items that could get away with an increase would be those made with the Imbue-Material feat, seeing as they actually are magical items. Thunderstones require Sound-Burst, and duplicate the effect, for example. But seeing as how pretty much anyone can use them, a low-DC isn't unwarrented.

[Edit] If more alchemicals could impart a 1-minute weapon bonus like Alchemist Fire does, that would be quite interesting to see.

[thaelis]

I dunno, I think an alchemical item that has the potential to do 20d6 damage (Perfected fire at ten rounds of 2d6 each round) is actually way over the top. Alchemical items are supposed to be low dc because they are so inferior to actual spells, but they are better then nothing. Making them be only slightly less useful then spells just breaks the spirit of alchemical items, in my opninon.

Well then..perhaps make the damage per round to be whatever the catching fire dmg is in the DMG... 1d6 from memory? Also I think the catching fire damage should only apply to the main target, require a touch-attack etc

A fighter/rogue can quite easily do much more than 20d6 (70) damage in a single round, which doesn't cost money or run out. Also, a single save would cause the effect to stop, and the DC's are pretty easy to save against (for PC's).

I was also going to suggest making them harder to make >< So only master alchemists could make the Perfected versions instead of any 7th+ level wizard.

Why have them in the game at all if they are useless and no-one uses them though? :S

[Thief Of Navarre]

Thaelis makes a good point. At the moment alchemy items are just trader junk.

[Poltergeist]

Why have them in the game at all if they are useless and no-one uses them though? :S

You have clearly never been in an event with Darius Blackwell.

[Nascent_Legion]

Although it is true that HIGH level fighters and rogues can do 70+ damage a round with ease, you are talking about an item a level 3 fighter or rogue can buy. For the cost of a few hundred stags, a level 5 fighter could fight any boss under the sun short of mossdale and win. A possible exaggeration, but not by much. Alchemy isn't real magic, and thus should never be able to surpass it.

[Peridan]

I could see maybe five rounds, making alchemical weapons more useful. Maybe adding side effects such as disease or poison for acidic flasks and making the DC's a little higher for the rest in order to make an alchemistic character a viable option.

[Kitsunestume]

I still think weapon appliques would be useful without disrupting game-balance: One minute or so of extra damage or special property. Acid damage for Acid flasks, +Damage vs undead for holy-water, perhaps entangle on hit for Tanglefoot (100% chance, lowish DC, similar to Bladeweave, but different effect). Perhaps include Ghostoil and Alchemical Silvering. The power of the alchemical items would remain constant, but their overall utilitarian value would be increased.

Simple enough to apply: x0_s3_alchem.NSS, line 49 changes the damage type added to the weapon, other properties could be added depending on strength.

[Edit] Not to say that the Improved Grenade Weapon script dosen't look nice: x2_s3_bomb

[thaelis]

Although it is true that HIGH level fighters and rogues can do 70+ damage a round with ease, you are talking about an item a level 3 fighter or rogue can buy. For the cost of a few hundred stags, a level 5 fighter could fight any boss under the sun short of mossdale and win. A possible exaggeration, but not by much. Alchemy isn't real magic, and thus should never be able to surpass it.

Of course it shouldn't surpass magic...DC's of 15-24 would hardly compare to spell DC's (ok the perfected one nearly would, but i'm proposing making it only craftable by those who specialise in alchemy). And the max damage for the Perfected (assuming the enemy fails every one of those moderate DC saves would be 11d6).

Have you ever had a flask of burning alchemical goo thrown on you? I'd like to think there's at least a risk of death, rather than just *slash* "Pesky Gnome tinkerer! you burnt my moustache!"

[EDIT] Of course, the changes i propose are quite radical, and might affect game balance. Perhaps a small change like Peridan suggested would be more balanced..i'd just like to see them have the potential to be lethal, even if its a very small chance

[Farmboy2003]

I'd rather see more recipes in general and more recipes with high DC's to craft. As it is now only the perfected energy/matter/thingies that requires the DC of a seasoned alchemist. That does not only make the items redundant, but also the characters making them. Could all the grenadelike stuff be taken out of npc shops as well? that way if you did want grenade-like stuff you'd have to RP your way out of it. Could that be a thing?

[Kitsunestume]

I think that as much as anything, improving the current alchemy system if a problem of balance: EVERYONE can use the crafted items, regardless of skill and cost required to make them. As it stands, any item designed to be made and used by level 20+ characters can still be nabbed and used by a level 3 fighter with 6 int.

One thing that may limit this obvious game-breaking thing could be to add a usage failure chance much like that on poison. When you use the item, you make an alchemy check dependant on the grade of item: 0 for basic variants, much higher for perfected versions, etc; in order not to have it go off where you are. 11d6 damage alchemist fire could still be used by said level 3, 6 int fighter, but they'ld have a higher chance of killing themselves that said mob they were targeting.

I'ld have to look over the poison scripts to see how viable the actual thing is, but an alchemy check vs (oTarget = oCaster) shound't be too hard to add.