Factionating the Abaddon

[Kitsunestume]

Hello all. Again.

Once more, I've had an idea to share with you people, that probably won't get worked on, if it's approved, for a very long time. The idea is as follows:
1) The Dark Advent is a faction in the current system, even if the only place is owns is the Pioneer's Way Ruins.
2) The Dark Advent is an alliance of Shar and Velsharoon.
3) The Abaddon is filled with Sharranpeeps.
4) Make the Adaddon a Dark Advent Territory.
5)Stuff now makes a bit more sence, and allows for a bit more dynamicwork IF any events happen to occur there. And I've seen them happen there, and been told that due to the fact that they are faction [Hostile] that I can't do much but kill them all.
As an additional suggestion; keep the area outside with the wraiths and stuff as the Hostile faction, so evil-clerics can still have friends (or mages with Control Undead).

Pretty sure my reasons for this suggestion are about as transparent as the air between your eyes and this text, so. . . yeah.

Comments, questions, concerns, toss em below!
Cheers,
Kit

[Satoshi]

I would like to see some revisiting of the Dark Advent as a threat. They pretty much dropped off the face of Sundren after Myrkul woke up and kicked them out of the Necropolis, but no one knows what they've been up to in the dark places. And, since a Nightbringer (albeit trapped in a cube) recently was in the area, I think there is definitely a lot of room for the Lady of Loss and Secrets to start getting her mojo on. And a Shadow Weave / Dead Weave area seems like the perfect choice of location for Shar and allied Velsharoonite shadow adepts, necromancers, priests, rogues, shadowdancers, etc. to strike from when they decide the time is right.

[Zoberraz]

I haven't missed the Dark Advent. They had their big shining moment on the previous iteration of the server, back when the first version of the Necropolis was created. They had their time to royally screw with people as epic-level threats while most of the playerbase was around levels 11 to 15.

Been there, done that. Not wanting to see them like this again.

I also don't get the sense that this version of Sundren has been short in the 'undead scourge' department either.

[Doubtful]

I think I'm with Zoberraz on this, I'd rather see the server and it's factions move forward, not back.

That said, it would be interesting to see the area nudged toward Sharrenpeeps. With the destruction of a Nightbringer at that location the area is pretty splurged over with Shars goey black stuff.

The key question should be is it better to bring back a beaten and pretty defunct group for the sole purpose of using their faction number, or is it better to look at an existing groups links to Shar and develop those?

Backwards or forwards, old or new...

Oh, and on point 5), DMs running stuff have some nifty insta-faction changing commands for NPCs, it shouldn't be a problem to mass switch creature/NPC factions in a single command, we can also disable spawns within an area to ensure no hostile stuff pops up as a suprise. Stuff that's spawned without a DM present would be a different matter.

[Kitsunestume]

See later post

[Satoshi]

The key question should be is it better to bring back a beaten and pretty defunct group for the sole purpose of using their faction number, or is it better to look at an existing groups links to Shar and develop those?

Backwards or forwards, old or new...

This is a good touchpoint. Dark Advent just seems to be the relevant gravitating point, though, because that's the historical title associated with Shar and Velsharoon in Sundren lore. If one day the Black Hand is beaten back and everyone thinks it's defunct, will it be abandoned out of hand?

I also don't get the sense that this version of Sundren has been short in the 'undead scourge' department either.

I think the Black Hand's ties to the undead are heavily overplayed as a result of them 'taking over' the areas defined by the previous occupants, the Dark Advent. I've never really thought that there would be entire graveyards dedicated to Banite Heroes rising to wage war. I mean, we all know Myrkul is willing to use undead for his own purposes, but their long-term existence feeds into Velsharoon's power and not his. It's the same reason Cyricists cause havok and murder carefully to prevent nations from being plunged into war, and thus giving Tempus sway of the land.

Why did the Black Hand pick up their tactics, when they want living servants and slave control? I would like to see a lot less Death Knights, skeletons, and vampires in that area (outside of Colibrus, I guess?) and see a more Zhentarim outlook with the Black Citadel. Shadows and Undead should go back to the God of Undead and Lady of Shadows.

[Kaybrie]

With Doubt, lore and story should move forward, not backward.

[Kitsunestume]

To belay Zoberraz concern of the undead scourge, it's probably readily known that my intent is not Velsharoon and his undead lackies, but Shar and all the darkness and secret plots that come with.

One line of thought I have had for such would be that the Abaddon could be used as a sort of 'safehouse' for Sharrans (And I know I've been seeing a small but steady population appearing). Followers of the Dark Lady could be DMly interred into the faction as they became aware of it, while still having whatever other outside faction they hold. This would, of course, rely entirely on the population of Sharrans continue to disperse at it's current rate. The organisation as a whole has been known to have priests working at temples of other deities (Or at least temples masquerading as belonging to other deities). Having the Dark Advent as a second faction would be an obvious way to facilitate such without much hassle at all.
At the same time, I am aware that this suggestion would require a lot of Staff thought behind closed forums.

[Zoberraz]

I do kind of see your point of view on the Dark Advent Satoshi. I'm not adverse to seeing it used. But as a big-bad, I just think it served its time.

That doesn't mean I don't think it wouldn't be neat for scattered members to try and rebuild it as a minor cult or something. I'd also would be much more interested in seeing it approach magic in a more 'questionable' way that's in the grey-zone without being outright evil, rather than have them go and be obvious overly nefarious people.

As for Shar... I don't have much of an opinion. Interpretation of Shar by exposure always struck me as more related to cloak-and-dagger with a healthy dose of spite rather than magic, personally.

[Doubtful]

The key question should be is it better to bring back a beaten and pretty defunct group for the sole purpose of using their faction number, or is it better to look at an existing groups links to Shar and develop those?

Backwards or forwards, old or new...

This is a good touchpoint. Dark Advent just seems to be the relevant gravitating point, though, because that's the historical title associated with Shar and Velsharoon in Sundren lore. If one day the Black Hand is beaten back and everyone thinks it's defunct, will it be abandoned out of hand?

It works as a historical touch point and it's always good to keep history in mind, however we must look to both the future and the development of the server and its story when we remember the past.

In the past the Dark Advent was a great threat, it destroyed the then temple of Kelemvor and corrupted the vast Necropolis using all the bodies stored within as material for their research. The Dark Advent leader focused much of the advents power into the hunting down of a powerful anti-phylactery artifact, then uses this artifact to attempt to take control of all things undead and to fold away the entire necropolis into its own pocket dimension. The Black Hand, consisting of a unified Church of Bane, the church of Colibrus and several proto myrkulites have learned of this plan and attempt to coerce the churches of Helm and the Triumvirate, as well as the Sundarian authorities into working with them against the Dark Advent threat. Stuff happens, the pocket plane containing much of the Dark Advents energy resources and leadership collapses in on itself. The remaining Dark Advent forces scatter, to either hide where they can or face extermination by the state or forced conversion/death from the Black Hand.

If the Black Hand is ever defeated so soundly, the leaders of all three of its churches killed or cast adrift on the planer winds, the great citadel cast down into the bowls of the volcano it stands above and all of its resources captured, stripped and claimed by other groups leaving nothing but the dust and the destitute for those to foolhardy to admit their factions failure, then yes. I suspect it would be abandoned out of hand.

Bane would not tollerate such failures amongst this faithful, so why should Shar and Velsharoon?

In fact if we really come down to it, why would Shar choose to ignore her previous historical links with Myrkul and Bane and carry on her relationship with a crippled and defeated alliance?

I also don't get the sense that this version of Sundren has been short in the 'undead scourge' department either.

I think the Black Hand's ties to the undead are heavily overplayed as a result of them 'taking over' the areas defined by the previous occupants, the Dark Advent. I've never really thought that there would be entire graveyards dedicated to Banite Heroes rising to wage war. That was the Dark Advent's thing - why did the Black Hand pick up their tactics, when they want living servants and slave control? I would like to see a lot less Death Knights, skeletons, and vampires in that area (outside of Colibrus, I guess?) and see a more Zhentarim outlook with the Black Citadel. Shadows and Undead should go back to the God of Undead and Lady of Shadows.

Keep in mind that the Black Hand reprisents a unity of churches; Bane, Colibrus and Myrkul. Two of these have some dominion over the dead: Colibrus as the grandfather of all (Sundren) vampires and Myrkul, Lord of the Dead. The church of Bane also makes frequent use of the undead to inspire fear, terror, strife etc in those who oppose him.

The churches of the dead three (four?) tend toward the Lawful; Bane, Colibrus and Bhaal are LE with only Myrkul being NE. In that context having a graveyard full of Banes Venerated Dead makes a lot of sense; those champions of faith who will one day rise again to make the world take a knee before the true lord as a nice opposite to the dead knights of Arthur who will one day arise when their country needs them most. (I do agree the faction could do with a lot less chaotic, and lot more Black Citadel/Zhent lawful scheming)

From an OOC storytelling point of view it's just silly to have two bad guy factions with drasticly overlapping portfolios on the scene. If it were to come down to it I'd rather the Dark Advent be completely removed and an Chaotic Evil foil to the Black Hands Lawful Evil introduced. A group of CE and CN Ragged Knights or Lords of Misrule inspired by various early pagan festivals and fun anarchic events or by the Unseelie / Winter Court Fey would be great fun, spreading chaos, anarchy and general disaster. But that's a topic for another thread.

[Kitsunestume]

~Ducks and covers as lore-artillery is thrown between Satoshi and Doubt~


I wasn't quite aware what a can of worms this might be. I, and I'ld presume many other players from after the Dark Advent was dissolved, was unaware of the nature and history of the Dark Advent in Sundren. It wasn't my suggestion that we revive a bigbad faction, and it can probably be more accurately described in the quotes below:

That said, it would be interesting to see the area nudged toward Sharrenpeeps. With the destruction of a Nightbringer at that location the area is pretty splurged over with Shars goey black stuff.

That doesn't mean I don't think it wouldn't be neat for scattered members to try and rebuild it as a minor cult or something. I'd also would be much more interested in seeing it approach magic in a more 'questionable' way that's in the grey-zone without being outright evil, rather than have them go and be obvious overly nefarious people.

As for Shar... I don't have much of an opinion. Interpretation of Shar by exposure always struck me as more related to cloak-and-dagger with a healthy dose of spite rather than magic, personally.

A small cult of Sharrans, related to the former faction only in terms of religion, to do minor plots and attempt puppetwork of other factions, while not getting attacked by other stuff that also follows the same deity.


Doubt also brings up another point that could smooth out the current dubackle.

The key question should be is it better to bring back a beaten and pretty defunct group for the sole purpose of using their faction number, or is it better to look at an existing groups links to Shar and develop those?

To this, I would ask if it is possible to rename an existing faction. If the Dark Advent has been so thoughouly disintegrated that it hasn't a hope of coming back, why not put something else in it's place. As Doubt and Kasso are saying: lore and story should move forward, not backward. Otherwise, I'll just head back to the plans of similar origin I had anyway.

[Saulus]

We are consolidating factions at the moment, adding a new one is contrary to our efforts... even as a subfaction.

That doesn't mean there can't be sharran events or groups, it just means they won't get all the resources a regular faction would.... and as Doubt mentions they essentially are all vassals/allies of Bane anyway.

[Kitsunestume]

ah, OK. I'll go ahead and do my little loner-sharran thing with me and by two best friends then.

[roguethree]

I would like to see some revisiting of the Dark Advent as a threat. They pretty much dropped off the face of Sundren after Myrkul woke up and kicked them out of the Necropolis, but no one knows what they've been up to in the dark places.

They mustered forces and requested amnesty so that they could assault the Myrkulites. Amnesty was refused, and Dain and whoever else was with him beat the holy hell out of them, nail-in-the-coffin style. I think GBX ran that one.

[Kitsunestume]

That doesn't mean there can't be sharran events or groups, it just means they won't get all the resources a regular faction would.... and as Doubt mentions they essentially are all vassals/allies of Bane anyway.

But isn't Shar in more complex political relationships with Mask and Cyric?
Since she basically eats the former after calling him her son, and is trying to get the latter access to the Shadow-Weave.