Elven Paladins

[GodBeastX]

*Probably pointed out halflings being overly evil too*

You're right, they're not supposed to be evil. Yondalla made them to be a good natured race. They're naturally predisposed to it.

But that just further brings up the point I'm trying to make While I'm not going to tell the evil halfling "You're doing it wrong" because Halflings can be evil, I'm just saying it should be an exception, and everyone picking it just makes the exception the norm.

[Cornuto]

Remember the last time a bunch of CE drow walked around? I sure do.


Yeeeeesh.

In any case, as for the 'exception to the rule', why is every single halfling an evil assassin on Sundren? I think there was like, one good one, Mitte Yikes ... the rest? Evil face stabbing children.

Aren't halflings supposed to be good as a whole? I don't even think they have an evil god in their pantheon.

Just pointing this out, because it appears as if people don't seem to care if the 'evil' one is the exception to the rule, only the 'good' or 'neutral' ones.

Basically...
The race is best suited to rogues,
Rogues are currently only viable with HiPS
Assassin is the mechanically better choice of the rogue PrCs that grant HiPS.
Assassin requires that you be evil.

Thus...
Evil halfing jambaroo.

[Kaizen]

Oh, I think we're tracking the same page, GBX.

Because you're right. Everyone these days just assumes a halfling is an evil assassin. I can name five off the top of my head, right now.

And I don't think that's supposed to be the norm.

[Kaizen]

Basically...
The race is best suited to rogues,
Rogues are currently only viable with HiPS
Assassin is the mechanically better choice of the rogue PrCs that grant HiPS.
Assassin requires that you be evil.

Thus...
Evil halfing jambaroo.

I forgot mechanics > RP on this server. My bad.

Which is a thought process I'm also guilty of, I'll readily admit.

[Doubtful]

Haflings aren't a restricted race and are subject to less control...

It is a bit ludicrous having them all as cheap oots knockoffs though.

[GodBeastX]

And in a round-about way, this further drives my point home of why Assassin should be an evil class. Why is a halfling so worried about killing people?

[ManUtd4Ever]

I have to agree Sundren has its fair share of evil Halflings. But! Not all of them are evil assassins. I play two IG and neither are evil nor a rogue.

[Redjack]

Even the the most good hearted halfling will become twisted and evil, depending on how long they have the One Ring in their possession.

Whew, I finally had something reasonably intelligent to add to these conversations.

[Torgar]

Alright, I am probably going to greatly, and I mean GREATLY, regret posting on this, because I know there are those, to be left nameless, whom absolutely HATE my choice for Tigen to become a paladin of Torm. Now, I want to say this: Elves are "Usually" chaotic, not "Always" so, that means, roughly, that about 75% of the race will lean that way, but that still leaves 25% to lean towards neutral and lawful.

Now, I know the idea of an elf following an non-elven, non-nature god raises a lot of hackles on some people, but I would, before being smote for talking about this, like to point out this, copied straight from our wiki, concerning the worship of a Human god, Torm, by elves and dwarves.

I quote: "Most Tormtar are human males, but both sexes are welcome within the faith—and as the numbers of the elf and dwarf peoples dwindle and they increasingly see the vital need for law and order among human communities to ensure their own survival, people of the Fair Folk and the Stout Folk are embracing the True Faith and the Unbending Way of Torm in ever-greater numbers." The link for which is http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.php?title=Torm , In the first paragraph titled "The church of Torm"

I'm not saying that is the only reason my LG elf choose Torm over Correlon, which would have resulted in a lot less hatred towards me, but that is a very large reason.

And, to quote GBX, although I can't actually quote, I'm pretty command stupid when it comes to forums, "I have no problem personally with Lawful elves, Good drow, good tieflings, half dragons, half ogres, etc.... when they are the exception." I never, ever saw an elven paladin before, even of corellon, until a few weeks ago and I saw a character called "Vilmar" who was an elven paladin of Helm. So, yea, first paladin elf I saw didn't follow corellon, so that's weird, and I'm weird too, I follow Torm, but in the end, Sundren is a human populated area, so why would paladins of the elven gods come here in the first place? It's full of undead and...ugh, humans. Screw that, they will likely stay in elven lands, defending elven society and religous views.

So, to defend the notion of an elven paladin following a non elven god, that is my defense in the end: Human lands, human gods, so elven followers of said gods would come here, not elven follower of elven gods.

By followers, I mean paladins in this case, because there are a number of elves on the server who DO follow elven gods very religously, and for that, I'm sure GBX and the rest of the staff thank you.

[ManUtd4Ever]

I am not a Paladin expert... I will defer to R3, but I do not see the issue. Tigen is an Epic toon in Sundren. The fact he decided to devote himself to a specific church? People would likely rejoice. Your standing in the community has to count for something.

[Zoberraz]

Um, Torgar, might I point out that Maia's ambivalence toward his new career choice is entirely in-character?

One point some of Tigen's friends may balk at is how Tigen's change of heart looks and feels very abrupt. Elves, being longer lived, typically don't change mindsets in short periods of time - even in the case of elves living amongst humans and thus being carried along at a human pace. The change brings about a "whoa, what happened?" kneejerk reaction since it effectively appears to come out of nowhere. I think the "Who are you and what did you do to Tigen?" reaction is also not a foreign one to this situation too.

Of course, we are human players so our portrayal of elvenkind is bound to be flawed anyways. There is also the metagame tendency of Sundren favoring a select slew of human divinities and the roleplay behind them being more supported, making the player choice of those more pragmatic, I'll give you that.

There's also, of course, the degree of bafflement that can come from an elf seeing another choose not to worship a god amongst the Seldarine. The elven pantheon already has it's own array of deities, most with portfolio goals that meet a pretty broad range of elven interests. In contrast, humans have a bewildering array of other divinities - dozens of them with more focused, lesser roles - who'se interpretations seem to vary from region to region.

So, if you're an elf and that you have your own elven god buddies... why worship Silvanus rather than Rillifane? Why Selune rather than Sehanine? Why Mielliki or Gwaeron Windstrom rather than Solonor Thelandira? Why Sune rather than Hanali Celanil?

It's kind of easy, in that light, to picture an elf reacting by sadly shaking his head and feeling that something must've gone wrong or that the other elf simply did not know better when the choice was made. A perhaps arrogant "why are you shortchanging yourself with a human diety?"

...and that despite supposed friendships between likeminded faiths. Because elves are longlived, haughty and arrogant enough to think so. Some kind of swerve around that and try to make their elves more sociable... but elven arrogance due to being longer lived isn't exclusive to them. I have two kid brothers at home whom I am the senior to by more than 15 years and most of the time I do feel like I know better than they do. Elves likely feel their 'I am above you' - even if not put unkindly - is pretty reasonably justified.

Another point is how Tigen's deity and class shift also violently tugs the carpet out from under the feet of a lot of characterization. You have this elf whom was very likely to be some champion of Corellon when he grew up into manhood... only to have his plans sidetracked by his introduction to his spirit guide (forced or no).

Somewhere along the line, Tigen became good at mysticism, opened to the matters of spirituality, likely new something of the nature magic he gained access to be extension, and had enough fervor to pursue it and grow of greater power with it - using his exceptional ability as a shaman beyond just the victimized youth that was forcefully awakened. He was not a victim when he got to be a level 15+ish shaman... he was a champion for the causes he cared for whom called upon certain spirits for aid, with some advantages and some constraints. Somewhere along the line, his desire to pledge himself to Corellon was kind of sidetracked, but not really eliminated either.

...and kind of out of the blue, he gets rid of his spirit guide - whom we can assume had become more a detriment than anything else (though when you're level 20, it kind of calls into question the magnitude of the commitment you're discarding - you're practically throwing away much of what you've been in your life).

But then, Tigen didn't convert into a druid - though it's kind of understandable despite similar ability layouts due to ideological differences and his attitude on druid oaths and metal armor. The Ranger and Barbarian classes could've built on his fighting abilities and his ties to nature while emphasizing either on lingering ties to nature magic for the former and on feral leftover of his spirit guide with the latter. Tigen could've also just turned into a fighter, being bereft of any magic both building upon what combat skills he knew to just become better at it (while no longer minding the Glade 'nonsense' about metal armor and going for plate all the way).

But no. Tigen became a Paladin, and one worshipping Torm. Despite reasons listed in favor of Torm - it does still feel like it comes out of nowhere to an outside observe that saw previous characterization of Tigen. Not to mention that Tigen's supposed deity, Corellon, is discarded pretty handily despite many elements of the portfolio (Arts, Bards, Crafts, Elven High Magic, Elves, Magic, Music, Poetry, Poets, War, Warriors) still likely of interest to Tigen and some portion of said dogma still likely applicable ( [...] "bring forth the beauty that envelops and let the spirit gambol unfettered. The song of joy and the dance of freedom shall ever soar on the wings of those who dare take flight. Guard against the slow death of stultifying sameness by seeking out new experiences and new ways. Ward against those who seek only to destroy in their inability to create and commune with the natural and mystical world. Be ever vigilant in force of arms and might of magic against any return of the banished darkness" [...] )

Not to mention that if I end up being, in some form, a champion of Corellon's (be it Divine Champion, a Paladin, a Cleric or just a very devout warrior) I pretty much believe I could be very selfish about how I use my deity-given powers - I'm an elf, after all, and if the powers benefit me in a way that doesn't contradict the nature of my god, more power to me, right? I can go "Corellon, protect me!" and fight these Cartel thieves I happen to really dislike and it ought to be fine. I could equally go "Corellon, give me the strength to protect these humans I care about!" and do it with the same verve, smithing demons and undead just like a Triadic knight and everybit as benevolently as the same.

And it should likely be all good - because I still end up representing Corellon in that case, doing the things I care about. "See this, everyone, the power of my god bared to you all!"... it's really doubtful Corellon would disapprove. And hey, if people are happy, then I'm free to promote things my god also cares about... like art, music, poetry and furthering the learning of magic as a beautiful thing. I may be a warrior of my faith, but I fight against the dark things so when left in peace, these things I love when people are happy also flourish.

This is getting to be a pretty long post, so I'll wrap this up with the following:
Torgar, Tigen's your character and more power to you so that you can roleplay him in the manner you find the most fulfilling... I think it's unfortunate that you've been moved to feeling defensive of your choice and on some level it may be a failing on our part.

But us other roleplayers, even respecting that right of yours, are still stuck trying to have the roleplay of our characters cope with this new situation. In this case, at least from my perspective, suspension of disbelief is being poked at and I feel it's reasonable to expect that people - especially other elves - to be moved to surprise at the choice, feel it is uncharacteristic and feel worry over the suspicion of somekind of foul play, or feel Tigen is being sadly misguided.

So, I don't hate the choice... but I'm still stuck having to process and react to it. A difference of option could be present, but it doesn't equal hate. You don't really need to justify OoCly your choice either - but don't be surprised if we gape in disbelief for a bit because we find it flies in the face of what we thought Tigen was. Ultimately, though, I just hope you have fun with it. As Maia says: "If life always went the way you wished it to, it'd be pretty boring."

[roguethree]

Um, Torgar, might I point out that Maia's ambivalence toward his new career choice is entirely in-character?

~You're so vain, I bet you think this post is about you!~

[Zoberraz]

I speak for myself and I answer for myself, RogueThree. It's my assumption that others do the same, so I won't for you. If that makes me vain, then fine: guilty as charged.

[Kaizen]

I want to know why this thread isn't about me.

[greypawn]

Kaizen loves elven paladins. I bet he'd play the best one out there if he rolled one up.