Nature's Warrior Pre-Req

[Chiangtao]

While there's been some talk about how poor the Nature's Warrior class is, I'd like to suggest that the Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike be removed or replaced as a prerequisite. This doesn't apply to creature weapons unfortunately and makes it a poor fit for the class.

I think it was mentioned that the prereqs for many PRCs were going to be restored, but I wasn't sure if this was part of the plan.



(( Edited! mixed up NW with MoMF ))

[Thief Of Navarre]

I think Kael said it was to do with the nature's warrior going back to nature. Using their 'own' fists against those who would undo nature.

[roguethree]

Yeah ... hopefully it goes away then. No sense in further limiting an already limited, gimpy class.

[Cornuto]

Class was balanced for a level 15 cap server. The forms don't scale so well into 15+

(Though the server may be facing some changes soon that'll fix that.)

[Root]

Well, when it gets to 15+, don't you go back to taking Druid levels, or even start taking Natures Warrior levels?

A level 20 Druid/MOMF/Natures Warrior would have constant regeneration, Stoneskin, +5 AC, etc.

Though I wouldn't argue to MOMF getting 1/2 spellcasting progression. Would be nice.

[Seheren]

Yes, you do go back to druid levels. However, a MoMF/Druid/Natures warrior would get 2-3 level 4 spells at a caster level of 8. Not very impressive really. So your stoneskin absorbs 80 damage. Also that +5 AC doesn't help a lot, seeing as even with Elephants Hide((which is 7 AC)) the upper tier forms are 29-33 AC with cats grace added on there. Fast healing 1 hardly helps in 15+ combat.

[Kaeldorn]

Practiced Spellcaster.

And yes, MoMF forms need tweaking.

Nature's Warrior actually gets some pretty damn powerful stuff for so few levels. One of the less impressive optional feats is creature weapon focus, I think. If that one's given for free at one of the NW levels, your weapon focus: unarmed essentially does 'work'.

Initially, I intended to use unarmed weapon focus for moves such as grapples and the like as well (handy if you're a bear), but that mechanic was too difficult to incorporate exactly as it was in PnP. Especially because the potential loopholes needed to be covered, which in turn caused all sorts of issues.

[DM_Acorn]

Oh MoMF so much potential. *Shakes fist at obsidian and their cumbersome shifting scripts*

[Seheren]

Practiced Spellcaster.

Yes, though you still only get 2-3 level 4 spells.

[Kaeldorn]

Getting some more spells is the advantage of taking levels in Druid over Nature's Warrior, when combining it with MoMF.

What's really important about Practiced Spellcaster is that it makes the spells you do have better (stoneskin = 100 instead of 80) and that they last significantly longer.

And for pure Druid/NW's, their caster level and spells/day are a complete non-issue, as they'll still get level 8 spells or something.

It's the MoMF that needs work, mostly. Not the NW (besides making that feat investment a little more useful, perhaps). And even then, the MoMF mostly just needs a bigger punch in the higher level ranges (15+). The greatest issue the MoMF has is that you more or less grow out of your forms as you progress. What I think we need to do is just add more 'levels' of some forms like the dragons, but with a better power progression.

Thing is, it's only sensible to wait with tuning MoMF forms until the encounters are redesigned and the new rest system is in place (that bit is done, but can't implement it yet). That way the usefulness of the forms can be measured according to the new difficulty of enemies you'll be facing.

[Chiangtao]

Seems like there's a lot of limitations in developing the forms, too. I know like, the air elemental pulse doesn't function, even though it's correctly assigned. I think when Sean put the creatures together, the abilities that couldn't be implemented were just omitted rather than replaced with something to balance it out.

Plus, some of the shapes aren't any more powerful or come at the same level investment. The elder elementals come at 20 levels, no matter if you go all druid or MOMF.

Not sure if it's being considered, but I like the idea of adding shapeshanger feats automatically at like level 4, 7, and 10, just like Natural Spell came in. Elephant Hide, Oaken Resiliance, and even Multiattack would be cool to get as freebees and might validate the pure melee build of the class.

Anyway just some thoughts on MOMF. I agree NW is awesome as-is. The pre-req was the only thought on that. Thanks folks!

[Seheren]

Getting some more spells is the advantage of taking levels in Druid over Nature's Warrior, when combining it with MoMF.

What's really important about Practiced Spellcaster is that it makes the spells you do have better (stoneskin = 100 instead of 80) and that they last significantly longer.

And for pure Druid/NW's, their caster level and spells/day are a complete non-issue, as they'll still get level 8 spells or something.

It's the MoMF that needs work, mostly. Not the NW (besides making that feat investment a little more useful, perhaps). And even then, the MoMF mostly just needs a bigger punch in the higher level ranges (15+). The greatest issue the MoMF has is that you more or less grow out of your forms as you progress. What I think we need to do is just add more 'levels' of some forms like the dragons, but with a better power progression.

Thing is, it's only sensible to wait with tuning MoMF forms until the encounters are redesigned and the new rest system is in place (that bit is done, but can't implement it yet). That way the usefulness of the forms can be measured according to the new difficulty of enemies you'll be facing.

I agree, NW isn't a bad class, though the pre-req is a bit off. I was planning to take the class after MoMF, though I felt I could not afford to take the feats and lose spells. I was commenting on mixing NW and MoMF, which is less then ideal.

I think something that would make sense is full BAB for MoMF and a few caster levels. 4-7 ((With 7 levels it would be possible for a 10druid/10MoMF to get 2 level 9 spells, though would allow for decent spells if NW levels were taken.)) levels of spell progression would go a long way, and full BAB for a class that spends all its time learning to fight in various forms makes sense. That also helps with the current issue that the AB of forms is pretty low.

As an example, the best form for my Char currently ((AB wise)) is the Dire Panther. My char is a level 17, 7 druid/10MoMF with practiced spell caster. With all the spells at my disposal I can scrape out a mediocre 26 ab for a short time in this form, though most are between 20-22 max. Coupled with 29 AC with elephants hide for the +7 AC and cats grace. With added BAB and a few more spells, all the forms would be more useful, and continue to increase in strength as I gained more spells.

I understand the need to wait to change the forms too much, but perhaps adding a few levels of spell progression and full BAB could be an option. I think even with +5 spell progression and full BAB I would easily be defeated by a same level full druid, as I would still lose a lot of spells. Though it would help greatly against mobs.

EDIT: I dont suppose there is any chance of getting Pet progression eh? Having a fully leveled pet would be cool.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Not trying to put a damper on your builds, but druid20 is still very viable and interesting to play; scaling companion, metamagic, timeless body, high level spells e.t.c.

Nature's warrior is good for a nice dip when you've fleshed out your character. I really wouldnt take it as a master of many forms though despite the synergy! druid15/nw5 would net you a decent ab, some unique abilities (regen is cool!), 8th circle spells and a pretty damn good companion if you take natural bond.

[Root]

Not trying to put a damper on your builds, but druid20 is still very viable and interesting to play; scaling companion, metamagic, timeless body, high level spells e.t.c.

Not to mention the best spell DC's possible on a world without +10-ish Wis items.

Seriously, Druids rawk.