Hero's Staff or Gloves with Bludgeoning

[ManUtd4Ever]

Also I don't think SF levels should stack.

I appreciate your opinion... but why do you believe SF levels shouldn't stack?

[Saulus]

Sacred Fist is not supposed to bypass the monk wisdom to AC while wearing armor, ManU. So yes it is actually a bug.

[Seheren]

I feel that they get spells and other abilities that more then make up for not getting some class specific armor/glove/boots. Much more. To get those items there is a steeper price then just coin. That is why these items are better, and to give it to a SF who with only mediocre equipment can destroy any monk, and most other builds, would open it up to anyone who would rightly use it anyway, thus making the necessity for monk levels irrelevant.

[ThePaganKing]

Lilene, you are a pure monk build, but not a pure monk - you are a vampire, which provides probably just as many bonuses that Sacred Fists receive. So your "pure monk" post doesn't really hold that much water, IMO.

Also, there is conflicting information about Sacred Fists. Some sites indicate you can wear the armor and not lose any monk abilities, some say you should not retain some abilities (wisdom bonus). If it is an exploit, I will stop playing my Sacred Fist.

Furthermore, I don't care if the gloves are 10 level monk or whatever, what the problem is for classes like sacred fist that state many abilities stack with monk, so you think you probably are at that 10 levels of monk, and then buy the 33K gloves and can't wear them. That is the confusion that can really make your day an irritating one.

If the DMs are introducing these types of items with class and level restrictions, I would ask they maybe post something about the items beforehand so that there is no confusion. This is merely a request.

[Root]

I actually kind of agree that Monk/SF is ridiculously superior to Monk, in the same way an EK is ridiculously superior to a Fighter. They sacrifice very little for massive, massive gains.

Frenzied Berserker though, is probably actually weaker in many ways than adding more Barbarian levels. No Rage improvements, no DR. Only thing you get is a little more damage and better cleaving, and Frenzy as a combat tool is a ridiculous idea to actually use, doing more harm than good.

Maybe a meet-in-the-middle on this would be to add items that depend on Frenzied Berserker and Sacred Fist levels? Then they could be balanced seperately and accordingly.

[roguethree]

Frenzied Berserker though, is probably actually weaker in many ways than adding more Barbarian levels.

No, doubled power attack damage, frenzy (it stacks with rage), and supreme cleave are amazing, much better than what you get for going pure barbarian.

And Sacred Fists don't need gear. They've got all kinds of spells.

Lilene, you are a pure monk build, but not a pure monk - you are a vampire, which provides probably just as many bonuses that Sacred Fists receive. So your "pure monk" post doesn't really hold that much water, IMO.

Why not? Her vampirism has absolutely nothing to do with her liking pure class builds. She wasn't always a vampire, and she didn't create the character specifically to become a vampire. Not all monks in the future are going to be vampires. That's like saying all paladins are OP because Dain is level 21 and has nice gear. Lilene's the exception to most monks, yeah, but it doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be made on behalf of the "average" monk.

[Lilene Jora]

Dain, thank you for saying pretty much everything I could have in my own defense before I got to it...it sounds much better coming from my character's strongest rival .

Somewhere along the way, PRC's went from becoming different but equal to base classes, to becoming downright better in every way, in most cases. Maybe it's not the way the system really is, but I simply believe class choices should be meaningful, and always a question of tradeoffs. It is my personal opinion that I like some steps are being taken to give at least a little more weight to those tradeoffs with class specific gear for the "weaker" classes...particularly those non-magic classes I more closely identify with.

Additionally, no one's asking anyone to stop playing sacred fists. I was just pointing out the fact that one could wear a chain shirt, or ideally, a mithril breastplate, and still get their wisdom AC bonus to armor that seems like an unintended NWN2 bug...which just so happens to make them even more-more powerful than regular monks, since you have the armor bonus and then casting ability on top of that.

I like the 5 level restriction on the monk boots too, otherwise monk is pretty much a "prc" for druids, who can go unarmored with owl's insight for massive wisdom bonus to AC + monk dodge boot AC, plus free evasion with good saves with resistance spells.

The reason I sympathize so much is because...monk, conceptually, seems like one of the classes 'meant' to go pure 20...the way many abilities are reserved until levels 18/19/20...but in practicality, it gets used most often as a two level multiclass buff for evasion and flurry and wis AC...with typically much more dramatic results. It just makes me sad to see a class I like get "used" like that. Rogue suffers the exact same thing...even a basic fighter can be much more formidable if they take 2 two so rogue levels for a tumble and UMD skill dump for the AC and give themselves some basic buffing ability, with a little extra sneak attack damage and evasion again, tacked on for good measure.

[Root]

No, doubled power attack damage, frenzy (it stacks with rage), and supreme cleave are amazing, much better than what you get for going pure barbarian.

I wouldn't call it 'much' better. The Barbarian would have +4 Str and Con on his rage compared to the Zerker, and more DR (A pure dwarf Barb could be rocking out with 9 DR pretty easily).

Both are pretty much screwed anyways, mind you.

Her vampirism has absolutely nothing to do with her liking pure class builds. She wasn't always a vampire, and she didn't create the character specifically to become a vampire. Not all monks in the future are going to be vampires. That's like saying all paladins are OP because Dain is level 21 and has nice gear. Lilene's the exception to most monks, yeah, but it doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be made on behalf of the "average" monk.

True, but it does kind of call up the fact of 'How is any non-assisted player supposed to keep up with the capabilities of characters with Vampiric power or DM-granted equipment?'. If the main source of being powerful is being chosen by the DM's for special roles, equipment, or powers, what are the masses to do?

I've no qualms with certain chars being DM-chosen for greatness, but making them an exception to game balance seems a tad off.

[roguethree]

Lilene, you are a pure monk build, but not a pure monk - you are a vampire, which provides probably just as many bonuses that Sacred Fists receive. So your "pure monk" post doesn't really hold that much water, IMO. (...)

(...)That's like saying all paladins are OP because Dain is level 21 and has nice gear. Lilene's the exception to most monks, yeah, but it doesn't mean efforts shouldn't be made on behalf of the "average" monk.

True, but it does kind of call up the fact of 'How is any non-assisted player supposed to keep up with the capabilities of characters with Vampiric power or DM-granted equipment?'.

If your nonassisted PC is a wizard, cleric, FS, or druid, you already more than keep up. If your nonassisted PC is a fighter, barbarian, or monk, you make use of the gear that is being/has been put into the server specifically for those classes.

[Root]

If your nonassisted PC is a wizard, cleric, FS, or druid, you already more than keep up. If your nonassisted PC is a fighter, barbarian, or monk, you make use of the gear that is being/has been put into the server specifically for those classes.

What I was kind of getting at is 'How can a nonassisted PC keep up with a similar assisted PC?'

Considering a vampire Monk can use the same gear as a non-Vampire monk.

Small bonuses as an addition for the assisted chars would be cool, since for the most part they earn the assistance through good RP, but the bonuses are significant. Etherealness-granting armour, significant DR, regeneration, strength boosts, being made epic-level, et cetera.

Those things can get so significant that even grouping up against the assisted chars borders on futile. Why make certain chars exceptions to balance?

[ThePaganKing]

I think it is great that there is new monk and other gear for especially fighter type classes.

My primary point with Lilene is it's easy for her to say that it should be only monk and that FSs should not get the same gearor love, while she has better abilities and stats than an FS will ever get plus she gets the good monk gear. She would tear my FS to shreds and did tear an FS to shreds just the other day.

The post was in no way to cast any cloud on Lilene. She roleplayed long and hard to get her vampirism and she still does a great job at RP. It was to make a point, that seems to have missed the mark.

[roguethree]

I think I get you now. You mean how would a human monk contend with a vampire monk.

The answer is the human/whatever race wouldn't. Vampires are an ECL +8 and come with just a few weaknesses, so they're beyond the scope of many to contend with, and that's by design. Each vampire is/was meant to be a serious evil that requires grouping to defeat, with a few exceptions. There's much to be said here that isn't on topic, so it will remain unsaid, but you're supposed to avoid vampires unless you've some friends on hand. There are classes in place that are effective counters to the vampires. Just like fighting any undead, you're at a disadvantage unless you have those types of characters along.

Is it fair? Of course not, but that's also by design.

Small bonuses as an addition for the assisted chars would be cool, since for the most part they earn the assistance through good RP, but the bonuses are significant.

It's something I think about. Currently, there are a couple avenues to mechanically enhance evil pcs that have rp requirements, but nothing similar regarding numbers, even to a lesser potency, exists for neutral or good pcs.

Again, disadvantage by design. I enjoy the mismatch it creates, but I also have the means to eke out "victory" sometimes, so it's less of a burden to me to find ways to be relevant to the conflict.

[Kaizen]

Those things can get so significant that even grouping up against the assisted chars borders on futile. Why make certain chars exceptions to balance?

Because certain characers were at the right place at the right time, with the right RP.

Its half luck/half effort, like most things.

RP =/= balance.

[grant]

Lilene was near or at level 20 when she became a vampire I believe. But she got there like any other PC should, when not soloing she had friends who could buff, her. However, Monks in NWN2 can not have their hands or gauntlets buffed in the same way others can have their weapons buffed (and it is possible in PnP, and if I recall that includes Druid/Rangers Magic Fang and other natural weapon enhancing spells). So...

To my original topic, it would still be nice to see more Silver, Cold Iron, Adamant or just plain enchanted kama's and staves. I know Mithral kama plans do not exist and an am fairly certain the same is true for cold iron and adamant. In general weapons that Monks would want to use to by pass resistances that they can not at the lower and mid levels.

Sure gauntlets add slashing to anyone's empty hand attacks (NWN2 bug), but the Cold Iron property of the Exorcists Palm might as well not exist, it has no effect overcoming resistances with a Cold Iron weakness. I am not entirely certain that is also true with PC made Ogre's Gauntlets that are also Cold Iron based.