Grand Master Training: Or something like that.

[crazyjerren]

This idea comes from a few different avenues, but one large contributer is the Grand Master Training for 4e.

I feel many in the DnD community have expressed that the limited amount of feats you can take verse the amount available, and (for the most part) there lack of potential to be completely game breaking, is sad. Most people home brew extra feats, use of flaws, etc. I my self have not played in a 3.x game in a long time that didn't use a feat per level system. Even pathfinder went to a feat every other level, as opposed to every 3.

What I wanted to suggest here is for the potential for being 'taught' or 'trained' in feats by someone who possess the feat or ability already.

This would promote roleplayed 'training' with other PC's, something I don't think too many people actually do because there is often little reward.

Now, I'm not suggesting these feats would be thrown out willy-nilly. I'm suggesting a system that aloud for it. Maybe a max of 5 bonus feats through training per character, documentation of training (screen shots + other players testimony + one or two DM observed sessions), and DM approval if the RP was sufficient and the feat in question makes sense.

Example: a character with unarmed strike teaches another character how to find in hand-to-hand combat. They go somewhere and RP techniques (while possibly beating on each other in subdue mode), screen shot their sessions, maybe have some other players observer and try to get the attention of a DM to watch as well. After the process is complete, the pupil gains unarmed strike. Maybe after continued sessions, depending on the focus, he could gain Dodge or the custom fighter dodge feats if it was defense or weapon focus unarmed strike if it was offensive.

Another might not require the master to possess the feat, such as having a trainer making your character do line sprints and eventually getting the "dash" feat.

Ultimately, this would provide a fun, unique way to promote roleplay and give the feeling of actually 'learning' an ability, rather than killing X number of goblins and all of a sudden you can make potions.

[Dragor]

This just creates a heavier opportunity for favoritism

And opens up new avenues for Pwr building

I've always liked having alot of useful feats to choose from and only being able to choose a few...it allows for customization and uniqueness

[Raksha]

Additionally, NWN2 really doesn't have enough feats to make this work. Even a multiclassing fighter may have difficulty finding enough good feats to take.

On the other hand, Those Hated Classes That Ought To Die (TM) really benefit from having extra feats for, say, something as simple as Improved Power Attack.

Therefore, this would be of benefit only for Those Hated Classes That Ought To Die (TM) than the characters who really should be much better at mundane fighting and the like.

[crazyjerren]

The idea would be that checks and balances could be put in place, and the idea of the screen shots + player witnesses would help with 'favoritism.' Players wouldn't be able to build their character with this option in mind, as they might not be able to find a proper teacher or it might be something you can't learn through training.

Also, rarely do a few feats make a power build. Class features and spell selection makes a build, feats augment it.

I've always liked having alot of useful feats to choose from and only being able to choose a few...it allows for customization and uniquenes

Unfortunately, I rarely see this as the case though. All the fun and unique feats (take dash as an example) are completely ignored for more combat relevant feats. The term 'feat tax' exists for a reason. There are just some feats that you have to take if you want to be a competent character. And when most characters are limited to 6 feats throughout all 20 levels, your selection starts looking really narrow with few options for 'flavor' feats.

[Dragor]

@crazy

I am defining pwr building as using this system to unlock PrC's so your char can take more combat oriented feats...or skill oriented feats...etc etc...its creating a loophole to get around the built in weaknesses of multiclassing into PrC's

I would really really really love for my SL to have cleave and both pwr attacks along with imp crit...but I cant have those and have my build remain effective...creating a weakness...*drools over the possibilities of the broadbladed spear, shocking burst wep, and the druid Flame Sword with Imp Crit*

[crazyjerren]

Additionally, NWN2 really doesn't have enough feats to make this work. Even a multiclassing fighter may have difficulty finding enough good feats to take.

On the other hand, Those Hated Classes That Ought To Die (TM) really benefit from having extra feats for, say, something as simple as Improved Power Attack.

Therefore, this would be of benefit only for Those Hated Classes That Ought To Die (TM) than the characters who really should be much better at mundane fighting and the like.

You say 'good' feats to take as a fighter. Lets take a straight fighter (you're gonna suck, but anyway) thats 6 general (7 for human) and 11 combat. Combat feats: Weapon focus, greater WF, Weapon Spec, Greater WS, Dodge, KD, Imp KD, Disarm, Imp Disarm, Expertise, Imp Expertise. There, 11. (you could drop disarm or KD for power attack/cleave or something) Now you have 6 general, but you still wanted that power attack and your defenses are sub par to your caster buddy (whole nother topic) so you take the two fighter dodge feats, now you got 2 left for you flavor, but you sacrificed con for 14 int for those Improved abilities and skill points.. so you take toughness. Congratulations you have 1 feat. Two if you are a human.

Granted, none of that is truly required, but some people would argue if you are straight fighter it is. Not forgetting that the common multiclass for a fighter is Weapon Master, which comes at a price of five feats. Two of which, due to NWN mechanics, are useless.

And, the 'THCTOTD' (tm) classes, do they include rogues? rangers? barbarians? Swashbucklers? These are feat starved classes that don't even get the benefit of spells. (all these classes in pathfinder, mind you, get bonus feats at a rate of at least every 3 levels)

[Kaeldorn]

I could see this possibly working if there was a set list of feats that can be applied in this manner, and only including flavour feats among them.
Stuff that provides skill bonuses
Stuff that enhances class abilities (like Barbarian Rage and Wildshape)
Stuff that improves saving throws vs. specific effects
That sort of stuff..

It's not really true that "Those Hated Classes That Ought To Die (TM)" are the only ones who would benefit from extra feat options. I've actually always felt, with all of my characters both on PWs and in tabletop games, that the limited number of feats invited too much to min maxing for combat prowess while leaving the things that are actually adding fun features to collect dust on a shelf somewhere. Those who opt to take the flavour feats anyway depend entirely on the DM to reward them for it. That works in PnP, but not so well on an online PW..

As a side note, I almost never play casters. I had a lack of feats to spend with my melee builds and rogues instead.

[Raksha]

That sort of list, kaeldorn, I can see being a lot better and more balanced. For feats such as those, the needy classes would gain relatively more. *Nodsnods.*

[Kaeldorn]

I am defining pwr building as using this system to unlock PrC's so your char can take more combat oriented feats...or skill oriented feats...etc etc...its creating a loophole to get around the built in weaknesses of multiclassing into PrC's

That's a thing I hadn't thought about yet.. But if a DM needs to oversee giving those feats, they can also make sure they're not used to meet prereqs.

[crazyjerren]

I am defining pwr building as using this system to unlock PrC's so your char can take more combat oriented feats...or skill oriented feats...etc etc...its creating a loophole to get around the built in weaknesses of multiclassing into PrC's

I'm confused here. What I'm trying to propose is system, minor one at that, that would prevent this.

Say a fighter wants to go weapon master, but wants to take some other feats, so instead of taking whirlwind, he decides to find training for it. First, he has to know a PC IC that has whirlwind already. Good luck. Second, he has to train with that PC for X amount of time, all while likely still gaining experience and progressing in levels. Lastly, I'd expect that requirements would still need to be made i.e. dodge, mobility, spring attack, and combat expertise. Now because of his choice to not take the feat through his class levels, he's stuck not even taking his PrC until mid teens and can't even go full 10 with it.

It would be more likely the fighter builds his character like intended, and through RP gains feats such as improved parry (bad example, crap feat), or combat tactics, or even skill focuses (being a way someone with high training in a skill could bestow knowledge to another character)

[crazyjerren]

Kaeldorn, Thanks. I apparently was not vocalizing my inner-brain-matter-thoughts on this textual-interface-thingy-mo-bob.

EDIT: To note, this could be read with heavy sarcasm, and that was not my intent. Sincerity was my goal.

[AsuraKing]

Even if I would LOVE to have the chance for someone to teach Cruven persistant spell so he could be even more powerful I'll have to say this is a bad idea... I see people grouping up and teaching each other feats for power based builds...

Think I'll wait the decade it'll take me to get to lvl 21 rather than have this added...

[Lydyn]

My thoughts on the matter is I love the idea in theory, but you would have to limit said "learnable" feats to role-play favor, skills, or minor feats only. Whirlwind, to me, could not be classed as "learnable." Here's my own suggested list of feats one could learn and would potentially be safe from power-building (and make RP-sense to be taught):

• Criminal
• Heightened Bodily Constitution
• Heightened Cognitive Intelligence
• Heightened Manual Dexterity
• Heightened Personal Charisma
• Heightened Physical Strength
• Heightened Worldy Wisdom
• Dirty Rat
• Forester
• Giant Fighter
• Master Tracker
• Second Wind
• Defensive Arts
• Elusive Target
• Battle Training vs. [Any of them]
• Daylight Adaptation
• Expert Tactician
• Great Fortitude
• Improved Initiative
• Improved Parry
• Iron Will
• Leadership
• Lightning Reflexes
• Self Sufficient
• Skill Focus [Any]
• Stealthy

[Doubtful]

Considering the mass of potential for people to call clique, favoritism, DM pets or whatever on this I can honestly say i'd be very happy if this learning system never made it anywhere near the server.

Bonus rp/skill feats at X levels for some classes would be good though.

[Darkened Skies]

I have to say I don't mind this at all, though I heartily agree that it should be RP-based feats only.

If anyone says I have DM-pets, they clearly don't know me well enough. I hate everyone equally.