Poison, and its use.

[crazyjerren]

Aside from the fact that poison in DnD 3.x is beyond ridiculous to me. (Something as lethal as cyanide, 200mg = death in minutes to most humans, is a DC 20 for 1d8 Con after 1 hour, and 2d8 con secondary 10 minutes later)

I was playing around with some of the poisons in the game, and noticed that they are beyond impractical to use, just like nwn1. After a quick search of the internet (and testing myself) I found the poisons only last for 3 rounds, the first round of which is pretty much used up applying the poison.

This effectively gives you 2 rounds to try and get up to your target and attack them (or two rounds to shoot them if you are using a ranged weapon, but who uses those? ). Not to mention that using the poison, just like using any other item in NWN2, kicks you from stealth. So forget sneaking up on your target to save time.

I personally would like to see a longer duration to the poisons, maybe d10+dex mod rounds? As it's a dex check to apply the poison if you don't have Use Poison. With Assassins and Blackguards adding their class level to the check.

I'm aware this applies to a small group of players, but it's sad to see poisons just go to waste.

EDIT: Also to note, the damage the poisons do in NWN is tiny. 1d2 primary and secondary no matter the strength.

[Cornuto]

Agree on all points.

[Kaeldorn]

The penalty stacks though, right? at d10+dex mod in rounds, assuming 22 dex and an average of 2 hits + failed saves per round (dual wielding), that averages out to around -10 to an attribute.

Ouch. Not even level 9 spells do that sort of ability damage, and poisoned weapons shouldn't be nearly as deadly. Ingested poisons are a different story entirely since they're a one shot deal and require more elaborate planning to have any effect.

Dex mod already scales power more than well enough, too. 5 rounds without randomness and some means of applying poison without breaking stealth seems more balanced to me.

[Cornuto]

Once you're poisoned you can't be affected by the same poisoned again.

[Cornuto]

The duration of applied poison to a weapon is 18 seconds (3 rounds). 3 seconds of which is taken up by the resolving of the spell effect before I can actually swing my weapon to use it.

The DC of the applied poison is lower then the DC to apply it to the blade by 2 points consistently, making it more dangerous for me then my victim. The application requires a DC check between 16 to 28 depending on the posion.

Regardless of the DC of the poision the damage is always 1d2 to a sepcific ability and is never any stronger, which most people won't blink at. Once posion is applied to a creature, they cannot be effected by the same poison again until the first is either cured or wears off.

It makes the entire thing obsolete for all but very few people, and with those people being few, it makes the crafting not a worthwhile idea for people like myself

I suggest that the use of poison be altered to make it so that it lasts until the first successful strike with the weapon. Upon asking a reasonable number of people online, that seemed to be a popular and enjoyable idea.

Sean dug into the mechanics a loooooooong time ago.

I mean there is literally nothing useful about applied poisons. Nothing. Nada. Ziltch.

They're not as powerful as level 9 spells. Heck, they're not as powerful as level 0 spells. They're useless.
3 rounds.
3. Rounds.
3.
Rounds.

...

(3 rounds)

One of which is the animation to apply it.
The DCs are pretty awful. (Most are around 20)
Even if you succeed in hitting someone in the 2 rounds the effect lasts AND they fail the terrible save the best you can hope for is 1d2 damage to one ability score.
Poison is also really expensive for some reason as well.

The fact that most people have a better chance of poisoning themselves than the target is the kicker.

[roguethree]

Ouch. Not even level 9 spells do that sort of ability damage,

No, but Moonbolt does.

[Cornuto]

Bunch of feats do it... (Without saves)

Weakening Critical
A swashbuckler of 14th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

Wounding Critical
A swashbuckler of 19th level or higher who scores a critical hit against a creature also deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature. (This damage is in addition to the Strength damage dealt by the swashbuckler’s weakening critical class feature.) Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

Crippling Strike

Specifics: A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

But; back to the topic... Applied poison doesn't. You can't stack the ability damage.

[Kaeldorn]

Ok, then it definitely needs help.

The low numbers just always had me assume that it was meant to stack, like the crippling strike feat for rogues.

[Talleyman99]

yeah poisons need help...

Make it like the rage and divine feats insta pop so a round is not wasted putting the poison on would be a a good place to start I think. Make it a viable move in combat at the very least. Then the 3 rounds is not such a "big" deal. Other then that a few that do D4 D6 to stats and better DC's. In then end though cause it's stat damage Death ward will stop it as always... How about w remove death wards ablility to block stat damage? it doesnt do that in PnP. In fact core dnd there is NO spell that blocks stat damage, it's in som off splat book.

[roguethree]

In then end though cause it's stat damage Death ward will stop it as always...How about w remove death wards ablility to block stat damage?

All for this.

[Catastrophe]

Three rounds?

[Philosopher]

All for this.

Heartily agreed. I've already put up this suggestion in the staff forums (and bumped it a few times). I haven't heard anyone give me a good reason why we shouldn't do it.

[Intrepid42]

EDIT: Also to note, the damage the poisons do in NWN is tiny. 1d2 primary and secondary no matter the strength.

From memory, the working poison effects that can be applied are tiny, as you said.

The script that applies the effects can be modified, to extend duration, have or not have a VFX, have or not have a Apply Poison check, etc.

However, you can successfully stack poison effects of different types, if you apply them at the same time via script. I have succeeded in doing this on in-game testing. However, each individual poison effect has a save. I have not tested whether consecutive applications of different types stack.

You can also use different effects, but these don't "count" as poisons in the game mechanics. It would be more effort than just modifying a few items.

For example, acid damage consumables that last longer than the current alchemy products, would help sneaky/alchemist types.

I suggest extending the poison duration as an initial step.

[GodBeastX]

Poisons are moddable, but yeah, we got other stuff we gotta finish/fix first or I'd be all over it.

[crazyjerren]

Poisons are moddable, but yeah, we got other stuff we gotta finish/fix first or I'd be all over it.

Completely, 100% understand! It is a minor thing that doesn't apply to the bulk of the server. Thanks for the topics acknowledgement though!

To further its discussion here, however, here are a few other facts about poison and their mechanics in nwn.

A character can not be effected by more than one poison at a time, like it was stated above, and the default time between the secondary damage and the primary damage is 1 minute. This would mean, in most cases, a character would have to neutrilize the poison before the second effect landed for a second dose of poison to occur.

While a character could apply two different poisons to two different blades, because of NWN2 mechanics multiple on-hit properties (to my knowledge) do not stack. Especially in the case of applied poisons. If your blade already has an on-hit property, you have to use another one and two different poisons won't be applied to the same blade.

Your best chance scenario for stacking poison is to coat two seperate weapons or two seperate stacks of projectiles; and with the current 3 round duration plus the 1 round application tax, that ain't happenin'.

Also: My reference to cyanide wasn't to compare ingested poison to contact, it was to show how weak and not lethal poisons are in DnD. There are a few exceptions, but they are in the second source books. Things that have secondary effects like blindness or straight death. <-These would be cool