Improving Rogues

[Lothoir]

It seems to be the opinion of many that rogues are supposed to be one trick ponies that can stealth and stab people. That's great for a PvP enviroment but Sundren is a roleplay server and to me the greatest appeal in being a rogue was the massive 8 skill points per level. The NWN2 engine does not lend itself well to encounters outside of combat however. I'd like to suggest the following improvements:

Traps: I'm going to get to the RP buffs but adding traps is something that can be done rather easily.

Dispelling Traps: Dispel check equal to rogue level? Stack a few of these and even a level 11 rogue has a decent chance of crippling that level 20 mystic theurge.

More traps in general: Eboncoin and Wrath of Nature get really nice traps but everyone else is SOL. Trapmaking is also a complete waste of skill points I've found. Rather than convolute the process it should be streamlined. Deadly traps and satchel charges for all!

Talents: Lifted shamelessly from Pathfinder. The overall gist is the same as fighter bonus feats. Every other level the rogue can select a nifty trick. At level 10, and every other level thereafter, their selection grows to even better tricks.

The talents listed here lean toward the complicated side so I'm only going to post what can be easily coded.

Camouflage (Ex): Once per day the rogue may gain a +4 bonus to Hide and Move Silently for 24 hours.

Canny Observer: The rogue gains a permanent +2 bonus to Listen, Search and Spot.

Charmer: Once per day the rogue can roll two dice when making a diplomacy check and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses. (Use would either display floaty text telling others that the rogue is allowed a reroll on their next check or it would automatically roll their diplomacy twice for them and then display the higher result)

Combat Trick: A rogue that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat.

Cunning Trigger: A rogue with this talent can set off all traps within 30 ft that she has set. (I'm looking at you, satchel charges)

Expert Leaper (Ex): When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start. Also, when the rogue deliberately falls, a DC 15 Tumble check allows her to ignore the first 20 feet fallen, instead of the first 10 feet. (will be more useful during DM events, but more options are always good)

Fast Fingers (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can roll two dice while making a Sleight of Hand check and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Sleight of Hand check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.

Finesse Rogue: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Follow Clues (Ex): A rogue with this talent can use Perception to follow tracks as per the Survival skill.

Guileful Polyglot (Ex): A rogue with this talent immediately gains an additional number of bonus langauges equal to their Int modifier.

Hard to Fool (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can roll two dice while making a Sense Motive check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Sense Motive check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses. (See Charmer for possible usage)

Honeyed Words (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can roll two dice while making a Bluff check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Bluff check. A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every five rogue levels she possesses. (See Charmer for possible usage)

Nimble Climber (Ex): When a rogue with this talent fails a Climb check by 5 or more, she can immediately make another Climb check at the surface’s base DC +10. If successful, she stops her fall by clinging onto the surface. The rogue does not take falling damage when she stops her fall in this manner. (Encourage rogues to use climb in DM events. Also useful with the addition of Kaeldorn's climb system)

Quick Disguise (Ex): A rogue with this talent does not need to use a disguise kit to create a disguise. (Maybe even increase the range of disguises available?)

Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. These additional hitpoints last for one minute per rogue level.

Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. (Grant the Keen Senses feat)

Weapon Training: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.

Advanced Talents (Can only be selected by rogues of level 10 or higher)

Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must have at least 13 intelligence to select this talent. (This one is admittedly more difficult to script but I have a few ideas as to how it could work)

Feat: A rogue may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a rogue talent.

Master of Disguise (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent gains a +10 bonus on a single Disguise check (+10 bonus to disguise for 1 minute. As I understand Sundren's disguise system the skill check is made only once for the disguiser, so this wouldn't be a problem)

Thoughtful Reexamining (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this talent can reroll a Knowledge, Sense Motive, or Perception skill check to try to gain new or better information from the roll. This reroll can be made any time during the same day as the original check.

The current rogue bonus feats: Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, etc. would be changed to talents (only requires 2da editing)

I'd also suggest the Trapfinding feat rogues gain at level 1 to be altered to its Pathfinder equivalent: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Search skill checks and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

These suggestions would not only give rogues more versatility but encourage people to take 20 levels in rogue instead of 5 or 10 before multiclassing.

On the note of a level 20 rogue:

Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:

• put the target to sleep for 1d4 hours
• paralyzed for 2d6 rounds.
• slain

Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.

While some would argue that Master Strike steals an assassin's shtick but I would counter with HiPS. I'd also suggest assassins be given a few nifty abilities, also lifted from Pathfinder. I'll post those suggestions and the suggestions for Shadowdancer next as I seem to have exceeded the character limit for a post.

Before I leave the topic of the base rogue however, adding those talents would give people a very serious reason to take 20 levels in rogue instead of multiclassing after 3 or 5 levels.

[Lothoir]

Assassins! (all of the below abilities would be in addition to what an assassin normally receives)

Hidden Weapons (Ex): At 4th level, an assassin becomes a master at hiding weapons on his body. He adds his assassin level to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them. (Only useful for DM events, but boy is it useful!)

True Death (Su): Starting at 4th level, anyone slain by an assassin's death attack becomes more difficult to bring back from the dead. Spellcasters attempting to bring a creature back from the dead using raise dead or similar magic must make a caster level check with a DC equal to 15 + the assassin's level or the spell fails and the material component is wasted. Casting remove curse the round before attempting to bring the creature back from the dead negates this chance. The DC of the remove curse is 10 + the assassin's level. (Before people cry foul regarding player perms I would point out that this ability only makes resurrection more difficult, not impossible. All it does it make a death more expensive since the bloodstones will be lost each time. There are also enough level 20 clerics that this wouldn't be too bad)

Quiet Death (Ex): At 6th level, whenever an assassin kills a creature using his death attack during a surprise round, he can also make a Stealth check, opposed by Perception checks of those in the vicinity to prevent them from identifying him as the assailant. If successful, those nearby might not even notice that the target is dead for a few moments, allowing the assassin to avoid detection. (This would almost certainly be a DM event skill, but as Hidden Weapons it would be a really nice flavor touch for the class)

Angel of Death (Su): At 10th level, the assassin becomes a master of death. Once per day, when the assassin makes a successful death attack, he can cause the target's body to crumble to dust. This prevents raise dead and resurrection (although true resurrection works as normal). The assassin must declare the use of this ability before the attack is made. If the attack misses or the target successfully saves against the death attack, this ability is wasted with no effect. (With True Resurrection not being in the game I would instead change it so that Raise Dead does not work, though it would consume the bloodstone, but Resurrection would. I want to note that on Sundren Resurrection requires 4 bloodstones. It would also be subject to the True Death DC, costing the victim even more gold.

And finally shadowdancer: In addition to what shadowdancers already receive I would suggest the follwing:

Rogue Talent: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, a shadowdancer gains a special ability that allows her to confound her foes. This functions as the rogue talent class feature. A shadowdancer cannot select an individual talent more than once. If a shadowdancer has the advanced talents rogue class feature, she can chose from the advanced talents list instead.

Shadow Illusion (Sp): When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability functions as Illusionary Wall, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day for every two shadowdancer levels she has attained. The DC for this ability is Charisma based.

Summon Shadow (Su): As it is now, but with the following changes: BAB and Base Saves equal to the Shadowdancer's. HP equal to half the shadowdancer's current total. Immunity to turn undead/rebuke undead. Deals strength damage instead of normal damage. If the shadow is destroyed the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 fortitude save. If the saving throw fails the shadowdancer loses a level (or maybe xp, or just gains a negative level that can be cured.) A destroyed shadow can not be replaced until the next server reset (this code is already in place for wizard familiars that are destroyed).

Shadow Call (Sp): th level, a shadowdancer can create creatures and effects out of raw shadow. This ability functions as shadow conjuration, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at 4th level, plus one additional time per day for every two levels attained beyond 4th (2/day at 6th level, 3/day at 8th level, and 4/day at 10th level). Upon reaching 10th level, the shadowdancer gains greater shadow conjuration. The DC for this ability is Charisma-based.

Shadow Jump (Su): At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 6th, 160 feet at 8th, and 320 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. (Every rest the shadowdancer could have a variable named shadowJump set on them with a value equal to their jump distance. Each jump would subtract either 10 or the distance jumped, whichever is greater)

Shadow Power (Sp): At 8th level, a shadowdancer can use raw shadow to damage her foes. This ability functions as shadow evocation, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and one additional time per day upon reaching 10th level. The DC for this ability is Charisma-based. (May not be possible. Shadow Evocation might need to be switched for a different spell. Shades, maybe?)

Shadow Master (Su): At 10th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds. (I would define dim light as being outside during the night or inside caves (buildings tend to be lit). If it could also be coded in to check whether the shadowdancer is in the AOE of a Darkness or Light spell that would be an added bonus, though not strictly necessary.)

[crazyjerren]

Great idea. Only problem I see is that the love would need to be shared around. Pathfinder also gives fighters a +1 per four levels to their AB and Damage with select weapon groups - and decreased armor check pen/increased max dex bonus on armor every 5 levels (I think I got that progression right, not sure. Don't have my book handy.) Barbarian's bonus 'rage feats' they get give them extra bonuses while raging, etc etc.

Now if we could magically transform NWN2's 3.5 engine into a pathfinder engine, I'm for it!

[Dave Fritz]

As one who plays a rogue or rogue-based multiclass almost exclusively (SP or MP or PW) I like the ideas presented above, BUT taken in total, they seem a bit much. So I guess I'd favour implementing a small number of them.

Not really sure which small number are my favourites, so I'll leave that for another discussion.

*Beginning of rant* A lot of the originally stated problem, though is that many parties can't/won't take the time to use rogue skills that exist already, like finding and disabling traps, unlocking, and using hide, etc. to scout ahead and lure small groups of enemies back to the main party. The same (sadly) would probably hold for new skills/talents. *End of rant* Please don't let this paragraph distract the thread focus.

[Raksha]

A lot of this has merit, and I'd specifically encourage many of the Rogue suggestions, as it suffers from the problem of Base-Class-Itis. It is a vehicle to get to a good Prestige Class, usually Assassin or Shadowdancer, or it underperforms -- and most importantly, doesn't get Nice Things. An underperforming class can be tolerable if there are Nice Things every level.

However, I think most of the Assassin suggestions would be difficult to implement. Having that one class able to hinder or impede normal PvP respawns would just be asking for griefing and trouble. Of course, if those things were maintained as NPC-only abilities... then that would be good. ^_^

As far as rogue scouting, et cetera, I've found (at least at lowerish levels!) that the rogue is more likely to be spotted and end up taking point in the ensuing fight than they are to find any useful traps. At upper levels, of course, they gain the tools to not worry about that -- and most other classes have gained the tools not to worry about traps. Energy Immunity, Stone Body, or Hey Wizard Please Come Along. I have, however, seen at least one dungeon where having a dedicated trapspotter is just as important as having a combat monster and it was a glorious thing.

[Dave Fritz]

As far as rogue scouting, et cetera, I've found (at least at lowerish levels!) that the rogue is more likely to be spotted and end up taking point in the ensuing fight than they are to find any useful traps.

Getting spotted or a sneak attack can work the same when your goal is to run back to (past?) your party waiting in ambush, hopefully taking only a few of the mobs at a time back with you.

Can't really speak to higher-level dungeons, as I've not gotten there yet in Sundren.

[Root]

The Fast Stealth Pathfinder rogue talent is already available in the form of the Rangers Camoflauge feat.

Could be added so the Rogue gets it at, say, level 11.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I must say Im all for bringing the shadowdancers shadow in line with PnP. I think I may have sugested it before.

Its like the one interesting ability worth taking shadowdancer for and currently it sucks! (*shadow daze is quite nice on reflection)

*-edit

[Pllow]

I'm a big fan of traps, maybe you could give a rogue bonus feat that improves their trap dc's? Or more available inventory weapons like daze/stun bombs so it's easier to proc sneak attacks.

Are there any dungeons that actually require a pure rogue? Multiclass rogues or even a class taking open lock as a cross class still manages to unlock most doors/containers so they never seem really 'required.'

[Root]

Are there any dungeons that actually require a pure rogue? Multiclass rogues or even a class taking open lock as a cross class still manages to unlock most doors/containers so they never seem really 'required.'

Should there be?

There's no dungeon that 'requires' a pure Wizard, since the only wizard-needing puzzle I've seen could be accomplished with a sorc, or a bard or rogue with scrolls, or anyone with enough access to elemental abilities.

Nowhere requires a pure fighter, nor a pure barbarian, though simply due to power a lot of places seem to require a Cleric / Favoured Soul.

There's many, many places with doors and traps that make a Rogue a valuable addition, or a Rogue/Fighter or a Rogue/Assassin or a Bard/Rogue.

Can't say that about most classes.

[Pllow]

I wasn't saying there should be I was just wondering if there was anywhere that needed high levels of disarm trap/open lock to get by, but if the server gets by without pure rogues then there doesn't much seem point in improving pure rogues when any rogue player can just as easily multiclass as fighter/whatever and get equally useful abilities/feats. Might seem harsh but if there's no real need for 'full utility' then it doesn't seem really beneficial to me to make them better at what they do when they're already over qualified anyway... If that makes sense anways. :P

E.g. Giving them extra feats to make them better at stealth/disarming/lock picking etc. when they're already pretty awesome at those skills (and they aren't really ever used at that high a level) doesn't really seem like it would address the weakness of the class.

[Root]

There are significant benefits to going pure rogue.

Have you forgotten about the bonus feats they get past level 10? Crippling Strike? Improved Evasion?

You get the most skillpoints of anyone, by a decent ways, you'll be a near-godly sneaker, and easily able to pop one level of Shadowdancer for that tasty HiPS cheese.

Granted they're not as useful as Assassins, and rarely ever will a pure rogue top a Rogue 10 / Assassin 10. But Rogues and Fighter/Rogues each have pluses and minuses. You want a comparison that makes the rogue look the underdog, look to Assassin, not Fighter.

[Cornuto]

and easily able to pop one level of Shadowdancer for that tasty HiPS cheese.

Nope.

Hide in Plain Sight: At 4th level, a shadowdancer may attempt to enter stealth mode even while being observed. If the attempt fails, the shadowdancer may try again in 6 seconds (1 round). Take note that this ability is traditionally granted at 1st level, though has been modified for the purposes of balance on Sundren.

[Pllow]

You missed my point.

You said rogues are godly sneakers, this is true, the feats proposed to them make them even more godly sneakers, but this doesn't make them any better, because they are already well and rarely spottable. It's a drop in the ocean to give them a bonus feat that improves a stat they're already never going to fail on. The weakness of the class is in it's usefulness in a fight, if you want to improve them then that should be the area focused on, they already have tons of skills and are quite easily made into jacks of all trades that have no problems with dc's because they pump their skills so high.

E.g. Giving a rogue with 60 stealth another +5 from a feat isn't going to solve the weakness rogues face online. Imo they need more methods of procing sneak attacks, feint is useful but is kind of round-about to get, HIPS is specialised, etc. If they had some kind of rogue-only stun/daze attack that would help them imo.

[Root]

I kinda agree, they should have the chance to crit non-crittables...

On the Sigil server, you can get weapons of Construct/Undead/etc Destroying, which allowed crits on previously uncrittable enemies. I'd love to see those here, or something comparable. Perhaps in the crafting system.

But tbh, I don't think they need more ways to proc sneaks on sneak-attackable targets. If you're finding it hard to get sneaks, look at your options available.

Darkness scrolls (automatically sneak attack anything in them iirc)
Feint, of course.
Impromptu Sneak Attack for the Tricksters, very handy.
Any kind of flanking, which with AI can be something as simple as throwing down a low-level summoned creature from a scroll then stabbing their spines out when they attack it.

They can get sneak attacks fairly easy.... Don't think they need far more. I suppose the Sap attack could be a possibility, but heck, is it really needed? If a Rogue gets the drop on you, they should be disabling you to kingdom come before you roll attack.

Poisons and traps would be better than more sneak attack options.