Turn Resistance for PC Vampires

[Kaeldorn]

Ah, misread your statement then. If it's one in 3 attempts, that seems about right.

[roguethree]

A 20th level cleric with a +4 Charisma mod can turn Clive 60% of the time, 75% of the time if the Cleric takes Improved Turning. That's 90% for all of the other vampires.

Under the current system, a turning-focused cleric (+5 cha mod with eagle's splendor) with the Sun Domain and Improved Turning can turn Clive by rolling a 5. That's assuming he rolls a 1 on the d6 he gets for his Sun domain. That's a success rate of 80 percent. If you average the d6 to 3, then he succeeds 90% of the time. 90% against an epic level vampire.

It'll take on average 3 rounds of turning for a completely specialized undead turner (with next to no multiclass options) to do it. And that seems about right to me.

...is the situation with turn resistance +4.

[OnyxTigress]

Poor Ruby and Grann don't have buffs or ethereal buttons; while they're no pushovers, it's almost a no-win encounter for them.

I resemble this statement.

But anyways, the turn resistance would be very nice, but I'm not going to cry big fat vampire tears if it doesn't happen. But rogue makes some very nice points on the matter.

[Cornuto]

Protection from Alignment no longer defends against mind spells, even though it should according to PnP. It was removed to stop a level 1 spell that lasts all day long from making who whole chain of spells and magic abilities useless, especially vampire dominate.

It's possible for vampires to get a dominate DC in the low 30s, and mid 20s is normal, whereas a mid teens will save is normal for a paladin (6 from levels, 2 from wisdom, and then some from cha and items). That means it should work more than 50% of the time. Only drawback is of course that it can't be used again if it fails. When dealing with clerics.. then true, their will save is sufficient to save most of the time.

But to get back on topic:

It'll take on average 3 rounds of turning for a completely specialised undead turner (with next to no multiclass options) to do it. And that seems about right to me. The added +4 turn resistance would set back that completely specialised turner to a 0-25% chance. That's just not cutting it.

+2 would be OK, though.

Clive's also one of the only level 21 PCs on the server. I'd rather crunch numbers with 2 characters of equal level.

Also... Master of Radiance.

[Kaeldorn]

Protection from Alignment no longer defends against mind spells, even though it should according to PnP. It was removed to stop a level 1 spell that lasts all day long from making who whole chain of spells and magic abilities useless, especially vampire dominate.

It's possible for vampires to get a dominate DC in the low 30s, and mid 20s is normal, whereas a mid teens will save is normal for a paladin (6 from levels, 2 from wisdom, and then some from cha and items). That means it should work more than 50% of the time. Only drawback is of course that it can't be used again if it fails. When dealing with clerics.. then true, their will save is sufficient to save most of the time.

But to get back on topic:

In perspective, a 20 Cleric with the Sun Domain and Improved Turning would have a 20-45% chance to turn Clive, depending on how the extra d6 from Improved Turning resulted.

It'll take on average 3 rounds of turning for a completely specialised undead turner (with next to no multiclass options) to do it. And that seems about right to me. The added +4 turn resistance would set back that completely specialised turner to a 0-25% chance. That's just not cutting it.

+2 would be OK, though.

[roguethree]

Or they could just dominate you to stop you from turning them.

Any class with Turn Undead has a Will Save that lolz at the domination DC in addition to access to Protection from Alignment.

Building one with the sole purpose being to repel vampires should be rewarded I think.

Yep, but as it is, any joe-schmo battle cleric can turn the vampires pretty easily.

What vampires need isn't more raw power in combat, but more political creativity.

Turn Resistance isn't so much raw power as an opportunity to actually participate in the combat. To put it in perspective, the last time I fought Clive, I turned him three times in a row (and killed him 3 times because I had subdual turned on and he'd greater restore upon recovery: I'm a dumbass). Granted, the dice bag gave me a big lift, but still, 30 rounds of Clive standing there, getting wailed on. Last time I fought Feigan, I turned him two or three times. Now, when the bastard's ethereal, I have to wait for him to rematerialize. Point is, I froze him up, and it wasn't so much a CvC as an execution. Poor Ruby and Grann don't have buffs or ethereal buttons; while they're no pushovers, it's almost a no-win encounter for them.

Vampires should absolutely hesitate against an epic paladin, but they should hesitate because of big smites, divine damage, saving throws, and 100+ point Lay on Hands.

Our perception about vampires' power levels are pretty skewed because 4 of the active 7 are divine casters. While the vampire-caster combo is stupid powerful, it's starting to not matter. The Triad doesn't even have an active cleric, but our two big paladins could lock down Team Vampire in a few rounds with just a little outside assistance. I love locking down those vamps that can just farm the world on easy mode and amass wealth and be awesome; it's satisfying for a guy that can't/won't do Veritas or Ixis. But in the interest of pc conflict, the vamps need the turn resistance.

There's no reason I should be able to turn the Epic Dread Vampire of Bane Clive Tarsus and not a level 20 vampire assassin mob.

[Cornuto]

Or they could just dominate you to stop you from turning them.

Yes, because of all the low will-save clerics/paladins running around.

[Kaeldorn]

Or they could just dominate you to stop you from turning them.

I'm of the opinion that any vampire should be scared shitless when meeting an equal level paladin, but maybe that's just me.

Most cleric players tend to invest in str and con over cha, because it makes them better melee fighters. Building one with the sole purpose being to repel vampires should be rewarded I think.

What vampires need isn't more raw power in combat, but more political creativity. Let them and their lackeys infiltrate the government to fuel player conflict. Repeatedly killing eachother is pretty boring *ducks and hides*

[roguethree]

They don't have it, and they're going to need it. It's hard to believe that no one has made a high level cleric with the Sun Domain, but as it is, I, a 21 paladin, can turn Clive, a 21 vampire, 35 percent of the time. A 20th level cleric with a +4 Charisma mod can turn Clive 60% of the time, 75% of the time if the Cleric takes Improved Turning. That's 90% for all of the other vampires.

So, in a CvC where both sides see each other coming, the 20 Cleric with Improved Turning can stop all but one of the vampires cold 9/10 times.

Back when Dain was fighting the vampires solo, I'd have argued that the Turn Resistance would be overkill, but if we're going to have meaningful exchanges between the forces of good and the forces of bloodbloodbloodblood, the Vampires need a chance to actually participate in those exchanges.

In perspective, a 20 Cleric with the Sun Domain and Improved Turning would have a 20-45% chance to turn Clive, depending on how the extra d6 from Improved Turning resulted. That's a 35-60% chance for the level 20 vampires, all of this assuming that the Cleric has a +4 Cha Mod; the cleric could have a +5, or even a +6, improving odds by 5-10%.

While I love being able to Turn the vampires and make those fights manageable, I think it's in the best interest of player conflict to get the Turn Resistance in, if at all possible. If it's not possible, well, sorry vamps. I'ma get my stompin' boots.