Pathfinder-izing some classes

[roguethree]

Took a look at what Pathfinder does to beef up some underpowered classes and adapted for NWN 2. I've given these classes capstone abilities at level 20 that would make it "worth it" to take these classes to 20 instead of just making them part of builds.

Fighter
3: Dodge
9: Defensive Arts
12: Elusive Target
19: Damage Resistance 5/-
20: Weapon of Choice, Increased Multiplier

Basically, the fighter gets AC feats for free instead of having to spend feats on them. This approximates the increased max dex bonus in armor Pathfinder fighters get. For going all the way to 19, fighters get DR 5/- because they're seasoned badasses, and going all the way to 20 nets the fighter one Weapon Master ability.

Paladin
5: Divine Bond (sword properties or Special Mount summon)
8: Immune to charm spells/effects
17: Damage Reduction 5/Evil, changes to...
20: Damage Reduction 10/Evil

Paladins are in a weird spot between damage dealer and tank. Most of their offense comes in a burst, and their durability is very reliant on short-lived buffs. The Divine Bond is a nod to PnP, recognizing that part of the class' balance comes from having that ability. The Immunity to Charm spells/effects is in Pathfinder, and I like it.
At levels 17 and 20, the Paladin receives abilities that recognize her commitment. She is such a pure being that only weapons wrought of evil can harm her. This improves the paladin's staying power, and it's certainly not over-powered, given the DR of a certain other class with much more power at its disposal.

Rogue
2: Weapon Focus
4: Stealthy Feat
8: Dodge Feat
12: Mobility Feat
15: Skill Focus: Search
17: Skill Focus: Disable Device
20: Death Attack

Pathfinder rogues get lesser rogue talents before level 10, so I added in these extras to allow the rogue some better combat and stealth efficiency and to give them more freedom to explore various builds. The point of the level 15 and 17 feats is to make rogues the best trap spotters/disablers. The level 20 death attack is a reward for taking the class all the way to 20 and forsaking the HiPS offered by Shadow Dancers and Assassins.

Barbarian
4: Rage heals 1d8 + CON Mod.
6: +1 dodge AC while raging
8: Rage heals 2d8 + CON
10: Second Wind Feat
12: Power Critical, +1 (+2) dodge AC while raging, Rage heals 3d8 + CON
15: Freedom of Movement while raging
16: Rage heals 4d8 + CON
18: +1 (+3) dodge AC while raging
20: Rage heals 5d8 + CON, Haste while raging

Barbarians suck. They get HP but no AC to protect that HP, and they don't have the utility that fighters do or the damage that Weapon Masters do. The Rage has had some things added to make the Barbarian more durable while raging, and at level 20, he gets Haste, which is tremendous. Second Wind at level 10 allows the Barbarian to build without wasting a precious feat on that requirement and then transition to Frenzied Berserker for the full 10 levels, if he so chooses.

[Peridan]

I'm down for making melee classes better.

[Lothoir]

For rogues, maybe code in some of the better rogue talents? Like the one that allows you to dispel on sneak attacks as caster of your rogue level.:P

[Lilene Jora]

If you're gonna do all that, I'd totally take monk damage reduction going from 10/magic to 10/chaotic :P

[very angry goose]

I agree with all of r3's suggestions. Yeah, as is, there's really no reason to take more than 10 levels of rogue.

[Dragor]

Rogue I can see needing help simply because this server can be more than a tad unfriendly to your pure rogue but to be fair even with upgrades at the higher lvl why would you pass up on one of the prestege classes rogue opens up for you? Taking Rogue lvl's opens up more prestege classes than any other class can

Fighter gets more feats than you can actually effectivly employ the major issue here is that the NPC hostiles on this server arent designed for straight melee builds and no matter how you build a fighter and how much you help its AC, nothing will change regarding them

Paladins can hold there own already

Barbarian actually already gets some really nice abilities at the higher end of the lvl spectrum, but since its inception has never really been as good as a pure fighter, and has been obsolete altogether since FB came about

And your Idea of rage healing them is way overboard

Now I wouldnt mind if they got SR (not too high though upper 20's) (lets face it raising saves as a spell defense is a load of bull) while in a rage, put that on top of the D/R they get and you get a bad fighter that can go into a rage and go through alot, the haste Idea is nice

overall I feel the suggested changes are a little drastic and as a rule I am opposed to scripting more abilities/restrictions into classes/feats/spells

The only reason I am in support of changes to the barb is that it really doesnt meld well with PrC's as in being a barb/fb is redundant

[Kaeldorn]

barb is that it really doesnt meld well with PrC's as in being a barb/fb is redundant

What? Really... What?

No, it is really not redundant. Rage and Frenzy stack, and all that bonus strength will make your critical supreme cleaves super awesome.

Funnily enough, barbarian and rogue also meld fairly well, because you don't want to get attacked overly much as a barbarian, you might as well get sneak attacks with a huge strength boost.

[Lothoir]

What? Really... What?

Rage and Frenzy stack

Rage and Frenzy are two rounds of doing nothing, which is why they need to be made free actions rather than standard actions.

[Kaeldorn]

Already done that for a coming update. Same with Divine Might, Divine Shield, Sacred Defense and Sacred Strike.

[Philosopher]

I'm with roguethree's suggestions completely. I've played Pathfinder. It's a wonderful "Edition" to D&D that balanced out a lot of problems 3.5 D&D had. In essence, Pathfinder is a kind of 3.75 D&D and it's excellent.

Here's a link to the real game: http://paizo.com/paizo

Paizo is an amazing company that used to do Dungeon and Dragon Magazine before Wizards of the Coast cancelled them for their new and terrible 4e Online Subscriptions.

Pathfinderizing some of our stuff would bring a lot of staying power to these underpowered classes and immensely helped with the issue of balancing. Adding capstone powers for level 20 encourages players to stick with one class all the way to its end.

[BedlamX]

Fighter gets more feats than you can actually effectivly employ the major issue here is that the NPC hostiles on this server arent designed for straight melee builds and no matter how you build a fighter and how much you help its AC, nothing will change regarding them

Um...if you can't use the fighter bonus feats "effectively", you don't play a decent fighter. Ursus would LOVE the free feats mentioned to free up some more slots for bonus feats he did NOT get to take. I took both AC feats with him and would have loved to have the slots open to take KD and Imp KD. There is almost no feats he has that are not used in most fights.

Paladins can hold there own already

Maybe you should reword this with the ending with "against evil undead."

I can tell you from experience that a certain paldin who shall remain nameless didn't stand much of a chance against a certain fighter who shall remain nameless in one-on-one fighting (even after buffing).


My only problem is that, even with the additions to rogue mentioned, virtually no rogue is going to pass up the 4 Shadowdancer levels to get HIPS. It is just too good an ability for rogue-types. Now...if you change the Death Attack to HIPS...I see it as more of a reason to go 20 rogue (and I would actually make one and do it...cuz I loves me some rogues...except on Sundren ).

[Lollercide]

Barbarian actually already gets some really nice abilities at the higher end of the lvl spectrum, but since its inception has never really been as good as a pure fighter, and has been obsolete altogether since FB came about

And your Idea of rage healing them is way overboard

I agree. Fighters and their their ability to capitalize on the FB class and Weapon Master class better and more easily with their loads of feats, lack of restrictions, and better armor give barbarians a lot to long for.

I don't consider the Frenzied Berserker that good of a PrC for pure barbarians - especially when hailed against what fighters can do with the PrC - because the easiest way to survive to 20 as a Barbarian is to either have VERY few levels in barbarian, (If you have fewer or equal levels in a class as a Barbarian, then I do not consider you a barbarian!) or be a CON heavy Barbarian who scraps together every AC, +HP, +CON, and DR. The Frenzied Berserker makes them sacrifice a lot of things to get attack damage, such as feats they have so very little of, and their barbarian progression (which isn't significant at first, but is so very helpful in latter levels.)


If I were to help the Barbarian class out, I would first start by offering them what they have in PnP and can be scripted into NWN2; feats to improve rage. They have a list of feats that improve their rage, from giving them scaling Spell Resistance when they're in rage, to health regeneration, substituting will/reflex saves with your fort when raging, giving you an aura similar to blackguards, to many other things. They are all well thought out, interesting, and they allow for a lot of diversity with pure Barbarians while focusing on what makes a barbarians a barbarian to begin with; their ability to rage.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Rage_Feats

[Kaeldorn]

Adding capstone powers for level 20 encourages players to stick with one class all the way to its end

I never quite saw the appeal of that.. 20 levels in a single class just seems a bit bland and uncreative to me.

But hey, to each their own I suppose.

The prereqs for FB are getting changed to make it easier for barbarians to get.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Rage_Feats

Some of those look interesting and would be pretty easy to implement.. might revisit them later.

[Kaybrie]

Oh dear sweet mike Sorcerer bloodlines please! That was the crowning glory to pathfinder in my eyes, something that truly sets sorcs apart from wizards.

[Lollercide]

I never quite saw the appeal of that.. 20 levels in a single class just seems a bit bland and uncreative to me.

Making a build with one class is just as creative and thoughtful as making it with multiple. It's the RP backing up the build, or the build backing up the RP that truly makes it (un)creative. This can be seen by the people (not using Sundren specific examples) dipping into 1 level of Cleric for the domains, a few levels of Shadow Dancer for HiPS, and so forth, without ever truly representing this in RP, and then witnessing the pure paladin and fighter who plays a pure paladin and fighter through and through.

The level 20 capstones are a nice idea, but I don't like the idea of making anything so valuable that it's mandatory. The thing I like about D&D and Sundren is (plausible) variety in everything.