Amending Stealth Rules

[Lothoir]

Right now the Sundren rules for stealth are to simply let the engine handle everything, but there are two main problems with that:

1. There is a house rule that a 1 always fails, however stealth is hardcoded into the engine with the 3.5 rules that a 1 does not auto fail on a skill check. This means that if a character has a Hide and Move Silent 20 points higher than another character they will never be seen, regardless of how many 1's they roll.

2. There is no way for people that do spot stealthers to point out the stealthed character to others.


I would propose that when a stealther first approaches a person, they should roll a hide and move silent check to have the same 5% chance of failure every other character has with a skill, and if they follow the character through areas they repeat the skill checks, once per area. And perhaps reroll the skill checks every fifteen or twenty minutes?

Also, if someone does spot a stealther, they should be able to point out the character to friends, giving some sort of bonus to everyone else's spot checks. +20 maybe?

[very angry goose]

In my opinion, the rogue's almost airtight ability to stealth and get the jump on someone is the only way he/she has any chance of winning a fight at all. The rogue has to fight dirty in order for the fight to be fair, especially since on Sundren he/she can't use low-level magical devices until level 20, give or take.

I've played a lot of rogues ( and assassins/IBs/even a Shadow Thief once) and have probably tried most of the rogue builds out there from the vanilla two-weapon wielding kinds to rogue/barbarians to arcane tricksters. It's a class I've come to both love hand hate.

[greypawn]

In my opinion, the rogue's almost airtight ability to stealth and get the jump on someone is the only way he/she has any chance of winning a fight at all. The rogue has to fight dirty in order for the fight to be fair, especially since on Sundren he/she can't use low-level magical devices until level 20, give or take.

I've played a lot of rogues/assassins and have probably tried most of the rogue builds out there from the vanilla two-weapon wielding kinds to rogue/barbarians to arcane tricksters. It's a class I've come to both love hand hate.

Agreed.

Also, pet peeve.... As a rogue assassin player, you wouldn't believe how often the line of sight rule is broken. *spot check successful, the mage turns around and blasts the rogue thats in a bush behind a tree into millions of pieces*

[Cornuto]

I think the rules are fine, perhaps we can add a rule that requires someone to break stealth if they're pointed out by someone. TBH I've never been a fan of the house-rule auto failing skill rolls on a 1. I'd rather see that scrapped if we're going to start amending rules. Giving and requesting skill checks on top of what the engine already does seems unfair. It's double dipping.

For example, if you've Person A with a spot score of 5, Encounters Person B trying to hide with a skill of 24. Person B gets spotted by the automatic rolls in the game engine, and then requests a separate roll, before he'll consent to RP being spotted.

In essence what's being asked is to ignore the fact that you've already passed/failed a roll.

[roguethree]

I have no idea what you're talking about; I've got no stealth skills at all. I get spotted all the time.

Constructively, It'd be nice if we could apply the same failing principle to stealth skills as we do other skills, but making stealthed pcs roll their checks would lead to some serious business metagaming, and I'd rather not see the bastards than line them up to get nuked every time they try to get sneaky.

[BedlamX]

Honestly, though, the rules of common sense are also broken more often than that. I don't care how good a sneak you are, there is zero way to actually sneak up on a group facing in all directions in a wide open space (such as by the campfire at the 2nd wind). I mean...you're hidden (thus the skill called Hide), not invisible. If there is nothing to hide behind or blend in with, I personally think the skill should not be able to be used. And I play a bunch of rogues, so I know I do the same as everyone else (ask anyone that played with my on Frontier and remembers Sgaile the elf)...just always thought it was silly. HIPS was always explained to me as distracting someone long enough to instantly move to a hide location. The sneak did not simply fade from sight in a brightly-lit, bare room. That would be natural invisibility.

Just my thoughts on stealth. Don't really care if it stays the way it is or changes to something more "realistic" (as if anything in D&D is realistic :P ).

[Kaizen]

From the Wiki:

Stealth is a sensitive topic for many players. While we'd love to make people use stealth 100% realistically, asking so would hamper the effeciveness of stealth-based classes. At Sundren, we try to balance gameplay with realism in our approach to stealth.
-Roll Requests: The staff has reassessed its view on the game engine stealth mechanics. Do not request hide or move silently rolls, nor supply your own spot or listen checks. The stealther simply uses his stealth mode. So long as he attempted to hide outside of the target's line of sight, the game will roll spot and listen automatically. You may request a listen roll for invisibility.

-Line of Sight: No one may spot stealthers without line of sight on the target. Even if the game engine makes your spot roll succeed, you cannot ICly point the stealthed character out if they are using full cover. Some examples include:

• Stealthed character that has FULL cover (fully behind a wall from your position)

• Stealthed character is behind you (consider peripheral vision to be a full 180 degrees, centered in the direction you are pointing)

-Proper Use of Stealth: Players who have successfully entered stealth mode may not spend any significant portion of time stealthed without using cover or concealment from in-game objects. Stealthed players may stay in stealth mode when moving from the cover or concealment of one object to another within reason, but never in full view of another PC or NPC they don't wish to be seen by. Shadows (at least twice the size of the stealthing character), nooks in walls, large rocks, and crates are all examples of in-game objects that provide partial cover. Sundren does not allow crowds of people as an excuse for granting cover unless DM supervised, since it is too easy to exploit.

• Example 1: Stealthed Player moves from hiding behind a barrel and skirts the edges of the room to gain cover behind a large peice of furniture. This is acceptable.

• Example 2: Stealthed Player moves from the hiding behind a rock through the middle of Exigo campfire to hide behind a wagon. This is not acceptable.

[Lothoir]

What I mean by asking them to roll checks is to do just that, roll two dice and see if either is a 1.

The other characters wouldn't get a chance to roll spot/listen because that is handled by the game engine. It would just give rogues a chance to fail, same as everyone else has a chance to fail anything. The reason we have the autofail rule is because of modifiers to checks the game does not handle.

And it wouldn't be metagamed anymore than it already is, since all anyone has to do is check the player list to see which rogue is in the area with them.


EDIT: And Kaizen, I know the rules. Which is why I'm posting to request they be altered.

[Kaizen]

wasn't directed toward you Lothoir, more directed towards those who read the post so they know what is to be amended.

[very angry goose]

From the nwn2wiki on Hide in Plain Sight:

Specifics: The character can use the hide skill when being observed.

[Lollercide]

Allowing critical failures on stealth is baaad.

*Stealths up to a group of 20 people, having fought tooth and nail to reach level 20, collecting all three stealth feats along the way with a class that doesn't get many feats to begin with, while also gathering every piece of move silently gear with the money he didn't get from solo-grinding, like most classes are capable of doing. Gets spotted and ousted by a level 3 newbie, everyone is aware of his eavesdropping, and is now branded as a crook/eavedropper for the rest of his career.*

If HiPS and stealth were failproof methods of escaping every situation, then I would agree that there needs to be some room for failure, but there are already a lot. There are spells that outright deny the ability, WIS based classes that EASILY beat their stealth abilities (looking at you, Druids), and other classes that have some chance of spotting you, if they invested points in it.

On top of the mechanics that can be used against them, the metagaming and butthurt powerplayers are constantly a serious issue to stealthers.

If stealthers are going to have more taken from them, don't make it THIS much more. +5%x2 to outright fail against everyone is a SIGNIFICANT hit to both their mechanical ability and roleplay.

[roguethree]

The idea with HiPS is that you're such a good sneak that you capitalize on some distraction and pull a Batman, not that you can just be hidden, standing in the middle of the road. Some people role play this very well; others role play this very poorly. It can be as simple as throwing something at someone's face, and in the moment that person blinks, you dive for cover. Flash pellet, "Hey, what's that?!" Whatever. Not just, "Ur looking @me but I'm not there lolol."

If you're in the open, using an object smaller than you, or pretending that a person's shadow is sufficient to become and remain unseen, you're doing it wrong.

[Lollercide]

The idea with HiPS is that you're such a good sneak that you capitalize on some distraction and pull a Batman, not that you can just be hidden, standing in the middle of the road. Some people role play this very well; others role play this very poorly. It can be as simple as throwing something at someone's face, and in the moment that person blinks, you dive for cover. Flash pellet, "Hey, what's that?!" Whatever. Not just, "Ur looking @me but I'm not there lolol."

If you're in the open, using an object smaller than you, or pretending that a person's shadow is sufficient to become and remain unseen, you're doing it wrong.

Agreed, but this will not be fixed by giving stealth a critical failure chance, which is my point. It would be slapping all stealthers across the board, yet not even fixing the problem.

[Verrath]

Lollercide has said it.

Druids.

The only one I know of currently that Annie does not spot is Logan. And once Osclow puts his charms on her she could probably spot him too. If not hear him.

That aside, I think the stealth rules are fine (Except when it's Logan. I think everybody should be allowed a smell roll when it's Logan). There is no abundance of server-side love for the sneak types to begin with. Stealth is their best asset.

[very angry goose]

I always thought and roleplayed that HIPS grants the stealther an almost magical ability to manipulate shadows because he/she is that good. You can't just be standing in front of someone and go poof, but you can cloak yourself in whatever shadows are there--Hell, you can throw a cape up over your head and utilize the shadow that it casts. Shadowdancers "dance with shadows" thus. Assassins learn how to do it as a tool of the trade. Rangers have that special connection with nature or something.