Feat Ideas

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

This post is a wish list to address two specific issues, one being a particular feat which, IMO, could use a significant improvement considering it is a feat and such things are limited and so shouldn't feel useless. The other is a proposal for a new racial feat specifically related to half orc barbarians in the vein of making them more resilient than other barbarians, rewarding them for being barbarians and alleviating some of the financial strain of playing the role of a hulking two handed orc barbarian (because you take a of a lot of damage in that role which ultimately costs you a hell of a lot more money than a cleric or tank warrior - further limiting your ability to improve your equipment and reduce your damage intake).

I don't expect it to be put into action, it's more or less a brainstorming proposal to address two things, and in the later case add a little incentive and flavour to a certain under used archetype that ultimately should be rather more common given the history of sundren.
　
　
First of Second Wind. Second wind as a feat seems to have a noble intent addressing the heavy discrepancy suffered in the sheer cost of character maintenance between warriors and the arguably better melee option of clerics and favoured souls. The issue is it falls short. WAY short. It's current function allows you to heal 1d6 + 2 hit points every ten minutes three times per day (assuming you meet the minimum requisite of 15 con for it,the +modifier increases with con's modifier for those who do not know). That's literally not even enough to cover the damage of a single goblin hit and that ability costs you a whole feat assignment which is a pretty damned steep price.
I propose changing it to the following:


Second Wind
Your experience with energy recovery before and after combat combined with just overall superb conditioning allows you to recover from injury and get back into fighting shape in remarkably little time when compared to the normal person.
Prerequisite: 17+ Strength, 15+ con
Benefits: You gain fast healing 1 (allowing you to heal 1 hit point per round)


What this will do is decrease the strain on low level two handed fighter types, marginally help tank fighters (to be honest it'd be kind of a wasted feat on them seeing as they really don't take that much damage in the first place, but if someone out there wants to I don't see any reason to stop them). This feet will dramatically reduce the down time on such fighters over all, as through their lifespan barbarians, frenzied berzerkers, hell even weapon masters of the two handed variety suffer considerable damage from sacrificing a shield which costs them a considerable sum of coin in the long run. This would help mitigate that by ensuring a more speedy recovery from the forces warriors face in the day to day dealings.

Note that the Prerequisites were increased to put it out of reach of non-physical prioritized characters. This is intentional as an effort to keep it out of reach of clerics, favoured souls, and druids, who hardly need the help (and indeed can just heal themselves at low level and once they reach a high enough level persist spells that are even better than this effect). While it's conceivable a half-orc cleric could be built with stats to meet those levels I can't particularly see it being a very good one in the long run, he'd have inevitably been better off going an actual fighter route given the sacrifices he's made to so many cleric relevant stats to be that physical, or an actual pure cleric and foregone the feat altogether and probably still be more powerful in the long run.

It's hardly game breaking as 1 damage regeneration per round won't make a dent in the damage being thrown at you in the higher levels, serving primarily as a nice heal boost between combat hastening the "Hold on, I'm bandaging" wait time that inevitably comes up every time you bring a warrior anywhere, slowing everyone down.
　
　
　
　
Secondly. Half-orc racial feats are a little slim and while orcs and half orcs in the lore of the realms are supposed to be considerable bad asses that people fear more for the whole "Oh my god that freakishly strong beast man can snap my neck at a whim if measures aren't taken to prevent that." Additionally barbarians are thoroughly out classed by fighters feat selection (which is kind of sad considering how harsh and unforgiving being a fighter that isn't a DD is sometimes). This is literally a continuation on second wind, going so far as to require it. It's orc or half orc specific and fits rather well with the barbarian theme of "They might not be as skilled as fighters, but they're the strongest, toughest bastards you'll ever never want to fight."
　

Orcish Tenacity:
Your kind's ability to recover from losses, and staunch refusal to die is legendary. You've tapped into this ancestral strength and your body has benefited as a result. You can recover, like your people, from the gravest of damage in a staggeringly short amount of time.
Prerequisite: Orc Blood, Second Wind, Barbarian Damage Reduction 1/-
Benefit: Your fast healing effect from second wind increases to 2,allowing you to heal two points of damage a round.
　

Mechanically it's just a straight up upgrade to the new Second Wind and further helps orc and half orc barbarians stand out as a racial archetype. Whether it's a two handed orc destroyer or a barbarian tank half orc it adds a good bit of flavour to the character by granting them something unique that no one else can quite match.


Note the prerequisites are intentionally rather steep, this would require a minimum investment of seven barbarian levels as a half-orc (or an actual orc in the case of grey orcs and NPCs), which means it would only actually show up on a feat selection screen at 9th level, which is pretty damned far along all things considered, in just a few levels divine casters can literally exceed it anyway so it's hardly unprecedented or game breaking.

It's also pretty damned thematic - orcs and dwarves, orcs and elves, they've all been going at each other for millenia and they've all developed unique adaptations to it. Dwarves are straight up some of the toughest creatures represented in sundren and indeed Faerun as a whole, which suits them well, elves lend themselves exceptionally well to magic, while orcs focus on sheer attrition relying more on simply out producing, out competing, and out surviving opponents - and god help you if you engage them in a prolonged guerrilla war. Nothing mechanically has ever been really done for orcs to support their sheer ability to survive and thrive basically anywhere on the planet with only perhaps trolls being more widespread on the face of faerun. This addresses that theme by supplementing their most common racial class (and the one that is the reason for their racial success) with a unique ability - not unlike the damage reduction feats of the dwarves on sundren.
　
Anyway, that's what I got for now. Discuss? Thoughts?

(Edit: Spelling... Because holy cow.)

[Dragor]

Sounds well thought out. I'm for it.

[Vonjan]

That feat would be abused. I'm sorry but i see Them and still respect there brute strength.
Did you ever consider someone that play's a monk Half orc?
that feat would be abusive.might as well just make an armor for barbarian with healing purpose. I cant see the Dev team coding a new feat when an item or armor or what ever could be made for them.

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

That feat would be abused.

Did you ever consider someone that play's a monk Half orc?
that feat would be abusive.

Could you elaborate on that? I can't really see a monk touching the second feat at all given the fact that it'd have to be a chaotic or neutral monk with seven levels of barbarian thrown in. Possibly if it were an extraordinarily well RP'd barbarian who made a shift to lawful at around level ten and started packing on monk levels, but if that were the case I'd be more inclined to say "Awesome" than "He doesn't deserve that" because the ammount of actual role play to do something like that would be pretty damned immense.

I haven't made a monk in sundren personally so I don't know any of the issues they have going for or against them, so elaborate o that please?

Might as well just make an armor for barbarian with healing purpose. I cant see the Dev team coding a new feat when an item or armor or what ever could be made for them.

While I agree that more class and even race specific gear available from vendors would be nice, it wouldn't change the fact that an entire feat flat out isn't very good, is required for a rather natural progression prestige class for the barbarian (in fact in PnP it requires rage, excluding pure fighters from just picking the class up), and has a cooldown that's absolutely absurd.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Its not canon, but personally I love it. I like trolls therefore I like passive regeration.

Remember when a CON above 20 in 2e granted regeneration?

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

Remember when a CON above 20 in 2e granted regeneration?

Sure do. Them was good times.

[Seheren]

I am all for this. I dont understand how that could be considered too much, temporary healing of 1 per round is very minimal and any divine caster has acess to such a spell at the beginning levels. A duration that could grant a decent ammount of healing would be perfect, with the obvious advantage of +duration for a higher CON modifier.

The one problem I do see however is the lack of time/staff to dedicate to creating more custom feats. From what little I see, I can tell that is a deciding factor, unfortunately, in many very well thought out and potentially useful projects. Perhaps there are people on here who have extensive knowledge in performing some of these tasks and could apply and help out the great staff here.

[Vonjan]

Could you elaborate on that? I can't really see a monk touching the second feat at all given the fact that it'd have to be a chaotic or neutral monk with seven levels of barbarian thrown in. Possibly if it were an extraordinarily well RP'd barbarian who made a shift to lawful at around level ten and started packing on monk levels, but if that were the case I'd be more inclined to say "Awesome" than "He doesn't deserve that" because the ammount of actual role play to do something like that would be pretty damned immense.
Thief Of Navarre Its not canon, but personally I love it. I like trolls therefore I like passive regeration.

Role playing something like that is possible that the thing. But there also the main fact that Thief of Navarre brought up and its fairly simple.
an orc ain't no trolls if thats the case lets get them out for all to play.

I can understand that there tough and all but they ain't no Wolverines if you catch my drift..thats why trolls are nasty to get rid of and a ring or item of regeneration is priceless even if its just a +1. anyway i was always under the impression that orcs don't live long and the ones that do wish they died in combat .
Besides my opinion is simple don't try to reinvent the wheel when you just need mags.
take care man

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

Role playing something like that is possible that the thing.

But that would be perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with that, it's hardly an abuse at all. Would it genuinely throw the game balance so much in favour of the at max 13 level monk that it suddenly becomes abuse?

I don't see the argument there, you need to explain why its a problem that a character who's well roleplayed would have access to greater rewards as a result, because the line of thought genuinely doesn't make sense to me, I'm sorry.

Besides my opinion is simple don't try to reinvent the wheel when you just need mags

Dude, by all means suggest alternatives to making the feat not suck then, please. I'm literally all ears, my primary interest is making a feat not blow secondary interest being make half orcs and orcs more interesting by giving them something more defining than favoured class: Suck. I want discussion and alternatives, I'm hunting for them, just shooting it down without any other considerations is hardly constructive criticism to the idea.



Note that it is far and away from monstrous regeneration. Fast healing just heals you faster, its just a faster natural process, not a supernatural one. Fast healing would not for example grant troll-like or ogre mage-like monstrous regeneration "Regrow an arm in a week or hold your old one up to the stump for two rounds and reattach it." Nor will you be "Require acid or fire to kill." You just recover faster between bouts, which is pretty much what second wind describes in real life when the term is used. The scars remain, the threat of dying remains, it really doesn't change all that much at all other than adding a slight bit of free healing and alleviating the strain on a two handed fighters' wallet.

[Thief Of Navarre]

But that would be perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with that, it's hardly an abuse at all. Would it genuinely throw the game balance so much in favour of the at max 13 level monk that it suddenly becomes abuse?

I don't see the argument there, you need to explain why its a problem that a character who's well roleplayed would have access to greater rewards as a result, because the line of thought genuinely doesn't make sense to me, I'm sorry.



Dude, by all means suggest alternatives to making the feat not suck then, please. I'm literally all ears, my primary interest is making a feat not blow secondary interest being make half orcs and orcs more interesting by giving them something more defining than favoured class: Suck. I want discussion and alternatives, I'm hunting for them, just shooting it down without any other considerations is hardly constructive criticism to the idea.



Note that it is far and away from monstrous regeneration. Fast healing just heals you faster, its just a faster natural process, not a supernatural one. Fast healing would not for example grant troll-like or ogre mage-like monstrous regeneration "Regrow an arm in a week or hold your old one up to the stump for two rounds and reattach it." Nor will you be "Require acid or fire to kill." You just recover faster between bouts, which is pretty much what second wind describes in real life when the term is used. The scars remain, the threat of dying remains, it really doesn't change all that much at all other than adding a slight bit of free healing and alleviating the strain on a two handed fighters' wallet.

Nature's warrior 1st level grants something identical to what is proposed. I dont see this being a problem other than the time and effort involved as someone mentioned already. I think its definately worth having a look at!

[Kaeldorn]

I have silently followed this topic, but I'd like to give some input.

Lately, I've been playing a barbarian myself, who is speccing into frenzied berzerker. I heard some complaints in the past about it being supposedly underpowered with the new prereqs and decided to try one out whilst trying out the server again after a long leave. So far, I've really not had any serious problems with the character being too weak. He performs well on offense, but a bit lackluster on defense due to his awful AC, which is compensated for in part with a good number of hitpoints.

However, I do agree that the Second Wind feat gets less and less useful the further I progress, and by the time I reach level 10 it's going to be pretty much useless. Out of the 120 hitpoints I have now it'll cure 4-9 hitpoints without rage up, and 6-11 with.

It needs to be buffed, though turning it into fast healing is overdoing it. True, if you look at the amount regenerated over the course of a fight compared to the amount of damage taken it's not particularly fantastic. What makes it insane is that you can just fight, wait until fully healed and then fight some more in the middle of a dangerous area. Fast healing would also be far too effective during combat at low levels.

It eliminates threats imposed by anything that doesn't outright outclass you. Also, nothing's really stopping a fighter in full plate with a tower shield and massive AC from taking it. Or a barbarian with 1 level of fighter, for that matter. Another bad use of it would be to combine it with some type of class capable of using invisibility or stealth (worse yet: hide in plain sight). It just takes a couple of levels and maybe the able learner feat. Fast healing IS easy to abuse on a server like this, but Vonjan just didn't underline the most game-breaking issues (in my opinion).


Nature's warrior does get the option to choose that feat (and I reckon most people will), but that class requires a lot more to attain and thus filters out optimized powerbuilds that aren't backed by RP.

What I suggest to change it to instead:
Make Second Wind function like a limited rest-effect, like the name implies. Restore character level+con modifier in hitpoints, reset uses/day of class-granted abilities (rage, frenzy, turn undead, etc), reset your rest timer (have to wait another 10 minutes to rest again). No spells regained and no removal of negative effects. One use per day.

The result is basically that you can 'rest' in the middle of combat to return some hitpoints and to allow you to use your abilities again, for emergency situations where you really need that extra leverage. Or you can get a bit of a buffer after a fight while you're in a dangerous area. It'd be an interesting tactical feat choice mostly for barbarians, paladins and possibly bards and a few prestige classes, but not all that imbalanced because it prevents you from resting again anytime soon (in a dangerous area).


On the other idea that was proposed.. The advantage half-orcs offer is that you can get the +2 strength bonus without losing constitution, like a wood elf does. It also has a better favored class for multiclass warrior builds. Maybe they could use a little extra (I can see that the Rage ability you get is pretty pointless if you're already a barbarian), but again fast healing would be a little much extra. Perhaps it could be a neat idea to allow them to take the Scent feat that full-blood gray orcs get for free as a racial. (for those who don't know, it allows tracking hidden and invisible enemies on the minimap. Also a useful asset for RP)

[Kaizen]

That sounds like an interesting idea, and it would most certainly give the non magic heavy classes some extra punch in CvC fights, where they are sorely underpowered (well, not fighters - but no one loves us anyways).

However, some of the once a day abilities are extremely powerful, i would imagine that players with this type of feat that requires only 15 con (correct me if I'm wrong) would only use it for CvC and nothing else. Of course, this is offset by the fact that it does require 15 con and the classes that could take advantage of this would be very lacking in their other important attributes.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

I like the idea of making second wind more powerful; though I wonder about resetting certain class abilities (like Kaizen mentioned).


I think making it heal for more would be good, at least. As long as it doesn't outclass say, lay on hands.

[roguethree]

As mentioned and alluded to before, Second Wind should just go away, and Frenzied Berserker should require the Rage ability to take. Old PCs exempt from the change, no rebuild.

[Cornuto]

I think most of the staff feels that non-caster classes (even the powerbuilds) aren't powerful enough that we want to throw up roadblocks to making them. I believe we'd all rather see more weapon masters and Frenzied Berzerkers than Divine Casters.

We'll take a look at the PrC pre reqs.